Harness In Road Car ?

[~ ~ Cal ~~]

http://bbs.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general...arness-set.html

Thinking of getting a harness to fit to the The Patriot ™

The alternative is a CG Lock which are pretty ace

Driving will be 95% B-Road & the remainder at Knockers

Thanks for any advice in advance

Cal

[thewelsho]

http://bbs.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-general...arness-set.html

Thinking of getting a harness to fit to the The Patriot ™

The alternative is a CG Lock which are pretty ace

Driving will be 95% B-Road & the remainder at Knockers

Thanks for any advice in advance

Cal

Do it mate. Mines can come in and out no probs. However, one day after a session at Knockers, I left the harness in and have been using it ever since. Mines are 3-point jobs and the strap coming through the hole in the seat, attaches to a bolt on the face of the rear seat, just about the floor. It means that backseat passengers have to straddle it, or I can just take it out. That said there are seldom passangers in the rear. The only downside is that the harness holds you tight to the chair, so reaching forward to change CDs etc. and to check for on coming traffic when situated at a junction, can be a bit of a nuisance - but all you have to do is quickly loosen the belts at the shoulders and life is fine. I love the secure feeling they give and I wouldn't like to go back to seat belts.

On another note. Finally got those DEFIs of yours fitted yesterday - lovely!

Edited November 30, 2008 by TheWelsho

[gus the bus]

Harness without a cage!

Talking from experience here but when I used to compete I was going to put a harness in the car (mini) and was STRONGLY advised it was a very bad idea by an RACMSA Safety Officer as without a cage you have no where to go in the event of a roll and the roof coming in.

So, I bought a cage first

Personally I'd go for the CG lock idea if you dont have/arent getting a cage.

Gus

Edited November 30, 2008 by Gus the Bus

[~ ~ Cal ~~]

Thanks guys - perhaps this might make sense too :- http://www.machevo.com/sphabar.html

Welshy - wish I'd never punted the Defi's but glad they all work tickety boo. Often a worry when you've removed leccy items !

What harness are you using ? Any pics of the install ?

CGS

[col666]

Harness without a cage!

Talking from experience here but when I used to compete I was going to put a harness in the car (mini) and was STRONGLY advised it was a very bad idea by an RACMSA Safety Officer as without a cage you have no where to go in the event of a roll and the roof coming in.

So, I bought a cage first

Personally I'd go for the CG lock idea if you dont have/arent getting a cage.

Gus

I had harnesses in loads of my car's in the past and it never crossed my mind about having nowhere to go in the event of a rollover, maybe I wont bother putting the set a have lying here in my new car.

As for the cage, that is a pretty dangerous thing to have in a road car too unless you plan on driving with a helmet on which is illegal is it not? dont fancy smashing my head off some 3" pipe in the event of a crash.

[thewelsho]

Thanks guys - perhaps this might make sense too :- http://www.machevo.com/sphabar.html

Welshy - wish I'd never punted the Defi's but glad they all work tickety boo. Often a worry when you've removed leccy items !

What harness are you using ? Any pics of the install ?

CGS

Will take some a little later and post them on this thread. My harnesses are Sabelt three-point jobs. Pretty basic but they'll do.

[chunkymonkey]

i'd avoid at all costs unless you have a securely fastened harness bar across the rear of the car, or are using it in conjunction with an aftermarket bucket seat with fixed mounting points.

if you think of the forces you would exert on the back on a seat with a moveable back as you went forward, and the force went down through the seat due to the fact that the fixing point at the rear was lower, then the strain on the seat back runs all sorts of risks, which you don't have with a standard seat belt.

they are fine in a rally car or track car, but imho that's where they belong, and harnesses with standard road seats is a dangerous combination. as has been previously mentioned you have little wriggle room in a harness in an accident, whereas there is more chance you could duck down in a roll with a standard belt, and avoid the corner of the car coming in on you.

they can also be dangerous if not securely fastened and if you are going the harness route they are not worth having if you don't have the crotch straps as well. in the rally car you pull them so tight you can hardly breathe. that's when they'd work best. even at that the only off i had was in an Astra without crotch straps and i partially slid out from under them.

harness+helmet+aftermarket fixed seat+rollcage = best combination

anything else = more trouble that it's worth, even if it does makes you feel like Colin McRae once you are strapped in.

[colin_ross]

Here's mine (excuse the cr@ppy phone pics, plus it's dark out there just now)

I still have the normal ones in and use them when picking up the kids from nursery or going to get my hair done etc.

If I'm on a charge however, I put on my race face and then the harnesses. They hold me in the seat much better and give me more confidence. As for meing able to duck out of the way of something, don't make me laugh. If a crash is bad enough to bring the roof or pillar in I seriously doubt I'll be able to make a concious decision to move out of the way of it. I'll be too busy being rag-dolled all over whats left of the car.

[chunkymonkey]

As for meing able to duck out of the way of something, don't make me laugh. If a crash is bad enough to bring the roof or pillar in I seriously doubt I'll be able to make a concious decision to move out of the way of it. I'll be too busy being rag-dolled all over whats left of the car.

didn't say you could, just said that you had more chance, as opposed to no chance if you're strapped in tight in an upright position in harnesses in a car without a cage to absorb some of the force. when i have mine on properly i can't move from the back of the seat which is great with a lid on, and a roll cage inches from your head. harnesses are not designed to be an integral part of a road car, so i think you take a risk putting them on.

also, as i said before, if you're going to the hassle of harnesses then 4 point are a waste of money in a sudden deceleration as you run the risk of sliding out from under them, as i nearly did the only time i've ever needed them. assuming of course that the downwards force doesn't crush the seat back and break the frame if the energy is heading down towards a rear mounting point lower than the height of the harness holes!

most harnesses will sit slightly higher up your body than a well placed lap strap. with a normal belt in a sudden deceleration you'd have a little bit of upper body movement, then be restrained by the cross strap and the lap strap. if you are in tight in a 4 point harness the upper body will stay put if you are in tight, so the forward energy transfers to your one point of escape - under the belts. quire scary, to be honest and every rally car since has had 5 or 6 points, as don't want that risk again.

[colin_ross]

How do you reconcile the above statement about the lap-belt not sitting as good as the oe one as you, or should I say I did, mount them to the oe belt points?

[chunkymonkey]

How do you reconcile the above statement about the lap-belt not sitting as good as the oe one as you, or should I say I did, mount them to the oe belt points?

sorry, but not quite sure what you're getting at?

point i was trying to make was that if you look at the harness from the front, the way it sits once fitted, is such that the buckle will sit slightly higher up your body than the point where a lap belt would sit across your body. therefore you are likely to have more of a gap to go under a harness than you will have to go under a lap belt. a lap belt can almost sit along the line of a belt you'd wear across your jeans, whereas its not usual to see a four point buckle sit that low, if for no reason other than the fact that it is flippin uncomfortable!

a lapbelt will be a straight line across the body looked at from the front. a harness will look more like a 'V' and an upside down 'V' meeting at a buckle. the strain from your upper half of the body will likely as not pull the buckle even further up, and you can slide under - exactly what happened to me, with professionally fitted and measured rally belts in 2006. that's why my last 3 rally cars have all had crotch straps.

sorry if i've not understood your point, and if i have the copy the two statements that you want to me to reconcile and i'll do my best.

[euan_r]

i rolled quite a few times in my last scoob down a bit of a revene and was fine with standard belt.

subarus seem to have a fairly strong shell to start off with, cage would be better like. had less of an off in an old fordy and the a pillers buckled and roof collapsed quite easily.

i dont think youd have time to do any ducking etc. if leaving tarmac at high speed.

welshos comments about not seeing at junctions without fiddling with harness would definatley put me off.

[colin_ross]

sorry if i've not understood your point, and if i have the copy the two statements that you want to me to reconcile and i'll do my best.

No, I think you're on the right track.

What I meant is my harness lap belt sits in the same place as my normal lap belt as they use the same mounting points. I will add a crotch strap on at some point though even if it is just for the silly name.

[thewelsho]

Mines from the front. Like Colin's pics, not the best due to darkness etc and the fact that I don't have much room for manouver in the driveway!

From the rear. The strap bolts onto the front of the back seat ledge. Should anyone wish to use the back seat, either straddle the belt or, as you can see, it unclips. The short peice attached to the back seat, then sits under the floor mat and out of sight. You can't see it on this pic but the side straps attach to little brackets with a metal loop on them that are bolted using the bolts that hold the runners to the floor. The harness can be easily detached using the caribina type attachment at the ends of the belt.

[thewelsho]

welshos comments about not seeing at junctions without fiddling with harness would definatley put me off.

Yeah, but you just quickly slip the straps out a little at the buckle, then once you take off, tug down on them again to tighten them up. Generally I don't have them full on tight anyway, so its not too much of an issue. However, If I'm making some spirited but legal progress along a junctionless road, I'll tighten them up. For the track they are on full tightness!

[col666]

Welsho,

Are you sure that's a safe place to have your rear strap mounted? I used to use the rear seatbelt mounting bolt where you put the buckle in.

I've seen diagrams about best places to fit the rear mount and I am sure that's not advised.

[terzo neil]

where he has the 3rd securing point on the 12mm bolt that holds the seats is asking for trouble

should be on the heavy anchor point for the rear seat belts

[~ ~ Cal ~~]

Thanks for the pics Welsho - I am torn as to what to do now given the constructive debate.........

I could always whip out the back seats and weld in some form of anchor point I presume ?

[col666]

The shoulder strap should be as horizontal as possible.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/bon...image_large.jpg

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/s...tcom_1691_61108

[corsa]

John, with all due respect i think the way you have those harnesses fitted are more of a danger if you heaven forbid have a real heavy front end bang.

best thing to do is either get the normal belt back on ior fit the proper ones that mount on a rear (indipendant for each strap) secure fixing point.

Not the best way to have them fitted inho.

Pics of how our Corsa has them fitted.

[J.C.]

I have my harness bolted to the rear seat belt mounting holes in my Fiestas.

Crap picture but you can just about make it out

But even this is not ideal. They should be mounted higher if possible, like Corsas Corsa.

IMO the way they are fitted in Welshos car is dangerous.

[colin_ross]

As above, JW you're dicing with death with that setup.

Fic to the rear seat belt mounting points.

[thewelsho]

Fic to the rear seat belt mounting points.

Maybe I would, if I knew what they were and where they where.

JW

[colin_ross]

Click your two outer rear seatbelt in. See the points that are holding either end of the lapbelts in place, that's them.

[ed-209]

Maybe I would, if I knew what they were and where they where.

JW

These where my old harness from the blue scooby which had a reinforced rear support. But when fitting them to john's, I fitted it them to the only point which is a center for the front seats, to move them john, just unbolt both sides and removed the rear seat base and refit them where the seatbeat attaches at the lower points (they will be offset and may not fit correctly then).

Found this picture of how they where original fitted.

Ed.

Edited November 30, 2008 by ed-209