Strut Brace On At Last!

[david_taylor]

dont want to argue with you m8 but i have 37 years experience in the motor trade .i lectured in vehicle construction/accident investigation for 20 years at tulliallan police college , wrote a book while there on the effects of impact on motor cars when

collisions take place . i have attended seminars with ford ,rover, vauxhall on vehicle deformation

when i retired from spc i worked with a accident inv firm called incinalisis .my roll was do a full examination of the car to determin what was the cause of the accident , working out deformation of bodyshells ,we could work out vehicle speeds at time of collision

i was lucky enough to be invited to the seminars in austria ,twice held in lintz at the workshops of the firm that does more accident invesigation than even our own TRRL ,they wrote the computer programs ,and hold the patent to PC Crash computer system that brittish police now use .mercedes, porsche ford and many other car companys take info from them

i dont want to get into a slagging match with you ,but a strut brace is not strong enough to cause that damage to your bodyshell , the brace would deform before it would feed those kind of loads into the strut area , there must have another reason for the problem

cheers geo

You clearly have a shed load of experience, however I am 100% confident that the brace caused this. You know the unusal can happen. You are basically saying its impossible for a chassis to be damaged due to the brace. Well as I stated before, my mates RS trurbo was wrote off years ago. It was directly due to the brace as the vehicle investigation folk told him. They clearly stated it would not have been wrote off if it was not on at the time.

Respect to your experience in the industry though.

Thats me done now!

[hosstheboss]

The brace is staying on thanks geo!

Think I'll leave mine on as well but i might go home and slacken all of the bolts...............

[scouk]

Think I'll leave mine on as well but i might go home and slacken all of the bolts...............

Dunno if you've noticed, but my bro reckons after fitting the front strut brace to his RB that the front was MUCH sharper! And comign off motorway slip roads it really felt like it wanted to oversteer saying he didn't think there was any need to whip the diff to the rear as the car was so much sharper when cornering..

I think the effect a strut brace has on a car depends on the rest of the supsensipn set-up if it's allready pretty stiff the strut brace can make a difference but on standard squishy suspension, it's probably not goign to make much difference.. Unless you hit kerbs side on

I did think the car turned in sharper after fitting mine to the WRX but thought it was all in my head at the time..

[cusco kid]

Think I'll leave mine on as well but i might go home and slacken all of the bolts...............

your takin the piss now aint ya lol

[cusco kid]

Dunno if you've noticed, but my bro reckons after fitting the front strut brace to his RB that the front was MUCH sharper! And comign off motorway slip roads it really felt like it wanted to oversteer saying he didn't think there was any need to whip the diff to the rear as the car was so much sharper when cornering..

I think the effect a strut brace has on a car depends on the rest of the supsensipn set-up if it's allready pretty stiff the strut brace can make a difference but on standard squishy suspension, it's probably not goign to make much difference.. Unless you hit kerbs side on

I did think the car turned in sharper after fitting mine to the WRX but thought it was all in my head at the time..

sorry m8 but that was just you mind playing tricks with your sencess .the top strut mountings dont move that much

the opposite should happen ,the strut brace should promote more front end grip if it stiffens up the top mounts .

handling on a unitary construction bodyshell is only as good as the torsional regidity of the shell ,ie if the shell twists as the suspension loads up ,the result is poor handling .thats why top rally teams and good rally car or race saloon builders build a roll cage that have multi pick up points througout the shell. they all locate to the rear suspension turrets and front top mounts as well to feed suspension loads into them like a space frame inside the car. the stronger the bodyshell is the better the handling, the longer the shell will last and give driver and co driver more protection in an accident .

cars now are made out of H.S.L.A.S, thats High Strength Low Alloy Steel, for low weight and as much strength as possible .a ring cage is put in at the design stage to give regidity and passenger crash protection

the classic subaru now getting on in years needs all the help it can get hence roll cages strut braces under braces all play a part in our performance tunning ,corrossion and old age can affect the ability of the shell to do its job., next time you are in a scrapyard lookin for bits have a look at some of the older cars and look at how the corrossion has weakend the structure of the bodyshell

cheers geo

[spot2]

sorry m8 but that was just you mind playing tricks with your sencess .the top strut mountings dont move that much

the opposite should happen ,the strut brace should promote more front end grip if it stiffens up the top mounts .

handling on a unitary construction bodyshell is only as good as the torsional regidity of the shell ,ie if the shell twists as the suspension loads up ,the result is poor handling .thats why top rally teams and good rally car or race saloon builders build a roll cage that have multi pick up points througout the shell. they all locate to the rear suspension turrets and front top mounts as well to feed suspension loads into them like a space frame inside the car. the stronger the bodyshell is the better the handling, the longer the shell will last and give driver and co driver more protection in an accident .

cars now are made out of H.S.L.A.S, thats High Strength Low Alloy Steel, for low weight and as much strength as possible .a ring cage is put in at the design stage to give regidity and passenger crash protection

the classic subaru now getting on in years needs all the help it can get hence roll cages strut braces under braces all play a part in our performance tunning ,corrossion and old age can affect the ability of the shell to do its job., next time you are in a scrapyard lookin for bits have a look at some of the older cars and look at how the corrossion has weakend the structure of the bodyshell

cheers geo

You beat me to it George, almost word for word what i was going to put!! lol

Graham

[dipsy]

sorry m8 but that was just you mind playing tricks with your sencess .the top strut mountings dont move that much

the opposite should happen ,the strut brace should promote more front end grip if it stiffens up the top mounts .

handling on a unitary construction bodyshell is only as good as the torsional regidity of the shell ,ie if the shell twists as the suspension loads up ,the result is poor handling .thats why top rally teams and good rally car or race saloon builders build a roll cage that have multi pick up points througout the shell. they all locate to the rear suspension turrets and front top mounts as well to feed suspension loads into them like a space frame inside the car. the stronger the bodyshell is the better the handling, the longer the shell will last and give driver and co driver more protection in an accident .

cars now are made out of H.S.L.A.S, thats High Strength Low Alloy Steel, for low weight and as much strength as possible .a ring cage is put in at the design stage to give regidity and passenger crash protection

the classic subaru now getting on in years needs all the help it can get hence roll cages strut braces under braces all play a part in our performance tunning ,corrossion and old age can affect the ability of the shell to do its job., next time you are in a scrapyard lookin for bits have a look at some of the older cars and look at how the corrossion has weakend the structure of the bodyshell

cheers geo

[scouk]

sorry m8 but that was just you mind playing tricks with your sencess .the top strut mountings dont move that much

the opposite should happen ,the strut brace should promote more front end grip if it stiffens up the top mounts .

I thought that's what I was saying...Adding strut brace increased front end grip/turnin/sharpness *confused*

[buffalo]

Less, youve now added more weight. JOKING!

the loss off the additional weight was the reason the guy sold me his 'real carbon fibre lightweight strut brace' for my old 182 would you believe

[cusco kid]

I thought that's what I was saying...Adding strut brace increased front end grip/turnin/sharpness *confused*

sorry m8 i misread your post ,yea see it now.//// more front grip will only give you oversteer when driving to a point that the rear tyres loose grip ,usually when driving fast beyond the limit of adhesion . i hate the dreaded understeer ,love oversteer.

with front end grip being enhanced the driving pleasure becomes greater ,more in control.

when doing accident inv i saw more cars that had been in accidents caused by understeering than oversteering that drivers could not control.

again sorry for missreading your post cheers geo

[arch]

Geo

I am taking my strut brace off I reckon thats why I hit the wall at Doune

[cusco kid]

Geo

I am taking my strut brace off I reckon thats why I hit the wall at Doune

he he

geo

[scouk]

again sorry for missreading your post cheers geo

Nae worries mate..! For a moment there I questioned my own understanding of it all

Yeah by bro found that the front end turned in so nicely that the car felt more balaced with the rear end following nicely without the need to flick the diff to the rear to induce oversteer (reduce understeer). He insists it should of been a standard component on the RB320..

Have been considering removing my front strut brace recently to try soften the front slightly.. At least until I get a uprated rear ARB.. I reckon the front of the car is currently way too stiff (compared to the rear end) and when cornering the rear end wants to roll yet the front wants to stay flat putting excess pressure on the front outside wheel. Which normally is good for grip but too much and it's forcing the car wide and feels nasty and almost unpredictable... really happened after replacing worn front drop links.. After fitting uprated ones the car hasn't felt as stable in the bends.. Got solid drop links and strut braces front and rear, but should have got the rear ARB done first.. Live and learn..

Edited March 3, 2009 by ScoUK

[hosstheboss]

Nae worries mate..! For a moment there I questioned my own understanding of it all

Yeah by bro found that the front end turned in so nicely that the car felt more balaced with the rear end following nicely without the need to flick the diff to the rear to induce oversteer (reduce understeer). He insists it should of been a standard component on the RB320..

Have been considering removing my front strut brace recently to try soften the front slightly.. At least until I get a uprated rear ARB.. I reckon the front of the car is currently way too stiff (compared to the rear end) and when cornering the rear end wants to roll yet the front wants to stay flat putting excess pressure on the front outside wheel. Which normally is good for grip but too much and it's forcing the car wide and feels nasty and almost unpredictable... really happened after replacing worn front drop links.. After fitting uprated ones the car hasn't felt as stable in the bends.. Got solid drop links and strut braces front and rear, but should have got the rear ARB done first.. Live and learn..

I only put on the strut brace to my RB so i had somewhere to hang my magic tree air freshners - fcukin things stink and make me sneeze.................

[cusco kid]

Nae worries mate..! For a moment there I questioned my own understanding of it all

Yeah by bro found that the front end turned in so nicely that the car felt more balaced with the rear end following nicely without the need to flick the diff to the rear to induce oversteer (reduce understeer). He insists it should of been a standard component on the RB320..

Have been considering removing my front strut brace recently to try soften the front slightly.. At least until I get a uprated rear ARB.. I reckon the front of the car is currently way too stiff (compared to the rear end) and when cornering the rear end wants to roll yet the front wants to stay flat putting excess pressure on the front outside wheel. Which normally is good for grip but too much and it's forcing the car wide and feels nasty and almost unpredictable... really happened after replacing worn front drop links.. After fitting uprated ones the car hasn't felt as stable in the bends.. Got solid drop links and strut braces front and rear, but should have got the rear ARB done first.. Live and learn..

hi there the rear arb if 24mm will sort out the problem by allowing the front to grip more

do you have an alk fitted and or coil overs

get back to me geo

[cusco kid]

I only put on the strut brace to my RB so i had somewhere to hang my magic tree air freshners - fcukin things stink and make me sneeze.................

good yin bud geo

[thewelsho]

the rear arb if 24mm will sort out the problem by allowing the front to grip more

do you have an alk fitted and or coil overs

get back to me geo

Please explain. It thought stiffening the rear, would allow the back end to be more planted. I have droplinks link front and rear 24mm ARB (middle setting) ALK and coilovers (Tein SuperStreet).

Last two times out at Knockhill, the back end was snapping round on me much more than it ever did, totally lost confidence in it now. Mind you, the last two times at the track, I also had different tyres front and rear. I had Faulkens on the front and RE070s on the rear the first time around, and then I swapped them around the following session, but with similiar results. I was coming off at parts of the track were I have never come off before, most annoying.

[scouk]

hi there the rear arb if 24mm will sort out the problem by allowing the front to grip more

do you have an alk fitted and or coil overs

get back to me geo

Thanks!

Suspension setup at the mo:

Standard dampers (KYB)

PRodrive Springs

Front top strut brace

Rear strut brace

Whiteline Drop links on rear (steel)

Perrin drop links on front (Only because the standard onese were worn and needed a replacement)

Standard ARB's

No ALK

Kinda looking to get a set of coilover this year sometime with a bit of luck.. Probably the BC's which are floating around a lot at the moment.. But the rear ARB is next on the handling shopping list

Edited March 3, 2009 by ScoUK

[cusco kid]

Thanks!

Suspension setup at the mo:

Standard dampers (KYB)

PRodrive Springs

Front top strut brace

Rear strut brace

Whiteline Drop links on rear (steel)

Perrin drop links on front (Only because the standard onese were worn and needed a replacement)

Standard ARB's

No ALK

Kinda looking to get a set of coilover this year sometime with a bit of luck.. Probably the BC's which are floating around a lot at the moment.. But the rear ARB is next on the handling shopping list

ok here is what you req to get better handling

no 1 anti lift kit //if you are doing track days a lot, motorsport bushes

no 3 24mm rear arb

no 4 22mm front arb

no5 roll centre adjust kit

no 6 pineapple bushes diff control (poly

no 7 steering rack bushes (poly

no 8 top mounts uniball type for extra adjustment for camber or caster//to fit std struts

no9 diff subframe lock kit /the rear subframe can move under extreme conditions,that locks it in place ,no more rear end wandering

no10 under car brace ,to strenghten up the bottom suspension points

here are some piccs of the bits on kevs type r

anti lift kit

pineapple bushes

steering rack bushes

roll centre adjust kit 2 ball joints 2 track rod ends

the diff lock kit

under brace

top mounts

this will make your car a handling monster,without going to coil overs

you could also drop the ride height another 15mm lower than p/drive springs

then if you want to go to the next level

you can do all the car with motorsport poly bushes,and adjustable track arms (acid has them on his car)

hope this helps m8 , need any other info just ask

cheers geo

[scouk]

Cheers for that!

Lots of stuff for a shopping list LOL!

No plans to do any track stuff.. But do look for a really nicely balanced A and B road machine.. Also always lookout to replacing the dodgy rubber bushes with the more modern polybushes where necessary

[Shelly_Scooby]

Think I'll leave mine on as well but i might go home and slacken all of the bolts...............

your takin the piss now aint ya lol

Yip the piss is being taken if I didn't know better I could have slackened the bolts!

Edited March 3, 2009 by Shelly_Scooby

[cullenmin]

Hey Geo, thanks for the detailed explaination of all the possible items to help suspension & handling.

I'm going to find out whats missing from my machine and populate a shopping list

I may be in touch quite soon

Rich

[cusco kid]

Please explain. It thought stiffening the rear, would allow the back end to be more planted. I have droplinks link front and rear 24mm ARB (middle setting) ALK and coilovers (Tein SuperStreet).

Last two times out at Knockhill, the back end was snapping round on me much more than it ever did, totally lost confidence in it now. Mind you, the last two times at the track, I also had different tyres front and rear. I had Faulkens on the front and RE070s on the rear the first time around, and then I swapped them around the following session, but with similiar results. I was coming off at parts of the track were I have never come off before, most annoying.

hi welsho, theres one of your problems your tyre combo falkins and reo 70s ,you should never run 2 different tyres to gether(seen your driving m8 you need all the help you can get lol)

these tyres have different handling qualities alltogether ,they would be fighting each other ,at least give the suspension a chance to work bud

bet if you had reo,s all round it would have been different

here is a wee guide to anti roll bars

20mm rear bar produces more front end grip, more neutral handling, reduction in very fast corner roll oversteer.

22mm rear bar produces more front end grip, more neutral handling, reduction of roll oversteer and allows driver to induce wash-out oversteer easier.

24mm rear bar produces all of the above but makes oversteer even easier.

22mm front and 24mm rear bars produces a lot more grip with neutral handling and induceable oversteer. To allow this set up to produce the extra grip, decent tyres are needed.,seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee theres your problem

24mm front and 27mm rear bars produces similar effects as 22/24mm front and rear bars, but needs racing tyres to work well.

because you are running c/overs you need to fit a roll centre adjustment kit ,to reduce bump steer and give extra front grip

cheers geo