Urgent Legal Advice Needed Regarding Traffic cops

[mctwistuk]

On the way to Paisley tonight i was going through an amber light at the junction next to Linsays garasge in Dumbarton when i was was pulled over by traffic cops.

They are claiming that i passed through the red light 2 seconds after it turned to red. They are claiming that my wheels crossed the white line 2 seconds after the lights turned to red.

When i asked them where they were sitting they indicated that they were sitting in an elevated position just after the garage.

This would mean that they could not see the white line or in fact the lights facing me. they could only see the lights on the other side of the carriage way.

I had a passenger in the car who can vouch for me that the lights were at amber when i went through them.

When i challengedf the officers they then said that if i believed i passed through the lights at amber then i should seriously question my driving as it was in fact 2 seconds after ithe lights turned to red that i crossed the white line.

What shoudl i do.

I reaklly want to take this top court to prove that i was in the right but it is their word against mine. I did not see their exact position where they were sitting. It was dark and it had also been raining. It was 17:55 and was told they had been watching the traffic from there all day. Does this mean they were at the end of the shift and needed to meet a target. They saw a subaru and thought quids in. They also said that they are long serving officers of the law and if they were in doubt if the light was red when i crossed the white line they would have let me off but due to a claimed 2 second time delay between red light and me crossing the white line they could not let it go.

If i take this to court to challenge this what is the likey outcome?

Should i just pay the £60 and take the 3 points? If i take it to court io will need to pay for a lawyer and then if i lose what will this mean in terms of points etc??? Can they indcrese the number of points and fine?

They mentioned the procurator fiscal may just look at it and change it to driving with undue care and attention and i guess that would mean i am screwed.

Advice on the above is sought from everyone here please.

[terzo neil]

also remember running a red light is worse than a speeding convection as it tells the insurance company that you are willing to take big risks towards other people on the road at junctions

 

ask them for any video footage, , they probably couldnt see the line if painted infront of them

[gus the bus]

Speak to this guy Mr Top Gun

number PM'd to ya.

David Kinloch is the guy top motoring lawyer.

Sh*t hot from what I've seen/heard.

Gus

[st3ph3n]

I would go to the junction and take photographs etc. from their location, preferably with similar lighting conditons and get as much evidence as you can to prove your point.

[AlanG]

It may be worth going back down to the lights to check that both carriageways change their sequence at the same time.

If the opposite carriageway changes earlier than the carriageway you are on (maybe to allow drivers to turn right before the traffic from Dumbarton get their chance), then maybe a mistake has been made.

Remember that the police only report you to the PF. It's up to the PF to decide whether there is enough evidence for a prosecution.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way, but their reasoning for sitting at that junction will probably be due to previous history at the junction where there may have been previous incidents of either collisions or near misses where people jump the lights (possibly due to lengthy waiting periods before they get their chance to move). That and speeding. I don't stay anywhere near there, but have always known it has been well policed for speed activity.

[mctwistuk]

if he decides it goes for conviction then can they increase points fine etc??????

[AlanG]

No. I would expect the PF will give you a condtional offer of a fixed penalty.

Should you wish to decline the offer, then a court date will be set to allow you to contest the allegation.

However, it will be within the rights of the court that they could increase the fine and/or penalty points dependant on circumstances should a prosecution be successful.

[mctwistuk]

cheers Gus.

I will call tomorrow.

It is just the hassle of our word against 2 upstanding officers of the law. Young guy driving a subaru need i say much more????

Should i just take the 3 points and £60 and be done with it and drive like a monk for 3 years.

[gus the bus]

No if your innocent mate! Fack that!

Speak to David. He will keep you right[Y]

[andy]

Firstly - be calm and don't panic (Mr Manwaring!)

Your word against two cops on a pull can be hard to fight - even with a witness on your side, but is not impossible - especially if you know you are in the right and are prepared to put up a fight. Personally, I don't believe coppers have "targets" (Scameras Pratnerships yes, but your average Coppers, no) However, from your description they may not have had a good enough view to make a call.

Firstly, go back in daylight and take photos from the position they say they were sitting (if necessary, go into the garage and ask exactly where they were sitting). Do not use a digital camera as images from them are easily edited and manipulated. Buy a disposible film camera if necessary.  Do this as soon as possible. It could be vital if you want to fight this and if you need to ask garage staff, the sooner you do it, the more likely they are to remember.

No matter what a couple of folk on here may say, PePiPoo has a good depth and breadth of knowledge and a good track record. Other than taking photos which I know the folk there would advise you to do, they are far better placed to advise you than I am. Go over, register on the forums, but read the stickies at the top first so you know what information you're expected to provide then start a topic with your case - note though that stuff like the NIP Wizard doesn't apply to Red Light cases.

You will be asked if you were given a verbal NIP, what paperwork you were provided with, what the police said etc. Have all that information to hand and if you can then scan and "wash" (i.e. remove any personal details and reference numbers) from the paperwork and post the images of them.

[AlanG]

I can understand your worry and anger but it's got nothing to with you being young and driving a Subaru.

Unless you stuck 2 fingers up at him as you passed with your bum hangin' out the window....

[Guest]

a guy i work with was accused of the same recently but on a level crossing

he challanged it had to appear at court and was told if it went any higher and he was found guilty he could face up to 2k fine due to his salary and 6 points.

he was also told it was 2 officers against him so his chances of getting of were slim so after court he had to plead guilty even though he still says now it was not red but it was not worth the risk of the big fine. it's a sad case of affairs to have to admit to something u have not done but do u want to go the whole way get found guilty face 6 points and a bigger fine??

my advice admit guilt pay it unless u will lose your licence as u already have 9 points??

[AlanG]

Andy has a valid point about not necessarily listening to what some have to say about it on here and you should seek legal advice on the matter.

However, as a curiosity point of view, did they ask for your name and address and did they check those details? Also did they inform you of your right to remain silent etc etc...

[ormiboy]

An admission of going through an amber is an offence itself i think? You are only allowed to go when at amber if it is dangerous to stop. i could be talking pap but worth checking before making a statement to the law.

bottom line is if you say it was defo not red then they are taking the pi$$ and that should be tackled. Pf would prob drop anyway?

Good luck

[mctwistuk]

they didnt inform me of my right to remain silent or anything.

they just told me they were giving me conditional fixed penalty of 3 points and £60 and if i wanted to contest it that would be up to me.

They asked for my driving license. I explained i had moved recently so address on it was not my current one. They did not check the details they only took my word. I had my license on me.

[andy]

An admission of going through an amber is an offence itself i think? You are only allowed to go when at amber if it is dangerous to stop. i could be talking pap but worth checking before making a statement to the law.

You're not talking pap - and I spotted that one myself when I was typing my reply. Amber does indeed mean stop unless it may be dangerous to do so. Then, reading the original message, the OP said "it had also been raining". That would mean it could quite easily have been less dangerous to proceed than to try and stop.

[AlanG]

This is different then to how i perceived the situaution and am out of my depth here when fixed penalty notices are issued as opposed to being reported to the PF for a motoring offence, sorry.

With what you've written above, because there's an element of doubt with regard to what state the traffic lights were in at the time of the alleged offence, i'd be inclined to check the timing sequence of those lights, if you say the traffic cops could only see the lights on the opposite carriageway.

[Guest]

did u know it's an offence not to have your current address on your licence?

get it sent asap in my advice others may know better there may be a loo period for getting it done though

although my car is still registered to home where i no longer stay but my parents still stay and the car is registered

[james666]

ok speak to scooby doom he will give some good advice, and i know the lights u r talkin bout, as i go through them all day long and there was no traffic cars there when i came home bout 4.20. but not sure on working of them i will have a look tomorrow if i remember.

[mctwistuk]

do they need to read you your rights when they issue you a fixed penatly offer?

I wasn't read mine.

[DonVeloci]

Sounds almost exactly what my dad was accused of years ago in Dumfries. He took on a solicitor and went to court. Solicitor had also driven to where the cop car was sitting and declared that they could not see the line. Case dropped!

Not read the rest of the posts in detail yet but check for yourself and fight!

[james666]

i had a look today and if the polis were sitting where i think they were they would not be able to see the white lines as i could hardly see them and i was driving over them this was 7.20 this morning.

[oletam]

If you pay the fixed penalty you will get 3 points...end of story.

If you don't it will go to court and you're liable to have your fine increased.

The warning re changing the charge to careless driving is standard for this type of offence(section 1 Road traffic offenders act) and must be given.

As an ex traffic cop nobody ever admits to going through on red.

However if you believe you are right take the previous advice re photos from where they were parked. If that proves they couldn't see you then you have a chance in court.

A lawyer might get you off but bear in mind how much this will cost you.

Best of luck

[G.Mac]

I always love how people always say just take it on the chin, it will cost you to contest. that is what is wrong with this country. if you were wrong then so be it, take the hit but if you are in the clear you should stand up to what you believe in. Granted there are alot of excellent officers out there but all to often you come up on ones that think they are a big gang with uniforms!

From what I can gather of you Mr Cruise from meeting you in the past I believe you, and if you can get enough supporting evidence then go for it!

 

Graeme

[mctwistuk]

thanks for all the hlpe and support on here.

Gus the contact you put me in touch with gave me some good advice.

Scooby Doom thank you alos for your guidance.

I know i am right and the light was at amber but it is still down to my word againsty theirs.

Taking it to the PF means i could risk a higher fine and i really don't have the cash for that.

Taking it to court will cost upwards of £1500 which i really cant afford. 

It is getting to the point now where to drive a car is just not worth it. 

G.Mac thanks for your kind words.  If i were just a wee bit richer then i may be in a postion to fight this.