ScottyRB320 Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Hi Guys, Looking to pick a few brains and hopefully come across a fellow SIDC member who has had a similar problem and found a fix, the issue does not have to be with an RB320 history of any similar problems with any Scooby welcome. Bought the RB320 5-6 weeks ago from Gav at Ian Grieves. Have been noticing a large amount of oil being used, Gav has had the car back to do some other work on it for me and they specifically looked at the oil use and could find no problems. I was in at Duncan at Hypertech checking on the progress of my mate John's Type 25 Litchfield and he too had a quick look on the ramps and could find no serious leak. Finally followed my mate Buster through to AWD yesterday as they were carrying out 4-5 hours work on his Tommy Mak Evo and they kindly had a look and found a few issues details below, but first an indication of how bad the oil consumption is. Car was on the high mark on the dip, checked and filled by Ian Grieves, travelled to Aberdeen and back motorway use sitting at 80 mph on the clocks did not boot it at all behaved all the way there and back (240 mile round trip) 1 spirited drive to Elgin and back for the Moray Monthly meet, along back roads making steady progress but still being sensible in 30's 40's and 50 mile limits, being really gentle allowing the car to warm up really well and cool down before turning off after driving. (120 miles round trip) Car has used 4 litres in 360 miles, i am having to put a litre in every 90 miles! Only the best fully Synth Helix Ultra Engine underwent a full rebuild by Prodrive only 2000 miles ago before i bought it so should be like new! Yesterday Just below half yesterday when i left Stirling to follow my mate to AWD in Perth. We left the car to settle for 45 minutes, flat area of course and she took 2 litres to get back to full as witnessed by Andy and his boys. Andy kindly stayed on late on a Saturday night to run some diagnostics on the car go over it fully and take it for a spin. We found the following problems: AFR Learning number 3 not moving from 0 when revved - (Should pick up load once above 2-3 thousand revs i believe?) Cat was tinking away like mad even after a very short 5 minute run around a built up area and short section of dual carriageway (Probably full of oil and overheating?) Engine and underneath of car is immaculate not a spot of oil to be seen - And yes the sump plug is in Back of car has no evidence of oil splatter and is cleaned every few days and i would have noiced it No visible reek at all when booting it from behind Andy took it for a spin, car pulls really well 1/2/3 gears as it should. 4/5th gears there is a flat spot between 3-5 thousand revs. Possible problems: The rings have been lined up wrong at the rebuild stage allowing oil to pass the pistons? Cat is defo knackered full of oil no doubt AFR Sensor faulty Any other suggestions really welcome, at a loss to be honest and so are the experts, hopefully someone has suffered similar and can give us a few things to look at. Apologies for the long post but i felt it was important to give as much history as possible. Regards ScottyB Link to comment
scouk Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 (edited) Yikess! Can't really help as it seems you've had the best local peopel look it over already.. However I'd also suggest giving Prodrive a bell first thing on Monday... I know, not normal advice, but they are pretty much responsible for the car being what it is and it clearly shouldn't be using the same amout of oil as fuel Edited August 10, 2008 by ScoUK Link to comment
ScottyRB320 Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 Hi Al, Absolutely! Am going to give Mike Wood a call Monday. He has been excellent so hopefully will be able to help out. On a side note buy shares in Shell Oil's trying to keep my chin up with some humour. Regards ScottyB Link to comment
RS Grant Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 The 2.5 STi engines seem to use a wee bit of oil, mine requires a very small top up every thousand miles or so... certainly not the amount you seem to be going through. That is NOT normal and would point towards a fault of some kind, with the car having been rebuilt recently, I would start there as a possible cause. If your car is blowing through that amount of oil, then I would expect your CAT to have suffered badly and be pretty coke'd up which would give the increased exhaust gas temps that you can hear by the 'tinking' sound...... the increased temps could also have caused the lambda sensor to get damaged which is why it isn't reading correctly. Cheers, Grant Link to comment
billyboystoys Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Hi Al,Absolutely! Am going to give Mike Wood a call Monday. He has been excellent so hopefully will be able to help out. On a side note buy shares in Shell Oil's trying to keep my chin up with some humour. Regards ScottyB tell you what scott you and john are having nae luck with yer motors hope you get it sorted soon but dont sound good mate .unc Link to comment
ScottyRB320 Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 tell you what scott you and john are having nae luck with yer motors hope you get it sorted soon but dont sound good mate .unc I know Unc, Not good at all. Between me and John we are using half the North Sea Oil quota on a weekly basis! Keeps me in a job though so shouldn't complain Was going to give shagger a phone to see if he was up and about, you around this afternoon? Might pop and see you was planning to go and take a drive out to see the Rock in Airth. Link to comment
dipsy Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 (edited) Piston rings damaged or sticking .I am sure the garage should of done a compression test Edited August 10, 2008 by Dipsy Link to comment
ScottyRB320 Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 Warranty? Yeah full warranty Paul - spoke to Gav today at Ian Grieves going to have a long chat with their top man tomorrow morning, they have been excellent can't fault them, full strip and poke about to find out what is wrong next week. Piston rings damaged or sticking .I am sure the garage should of done a compression test Agreed Dipsy, compression seems fine, car is pulling as it should 1/2/3 gear as per my original post, small flat spot 4/5th gears as previously discussed. If they haven't done already i will get Ian Grieves to do one when they take it in. Surely if the rings were damaged or sticking i would have a noticeable loss of performance and or power or am i wrong? Regards ScottyB Link to comment
billyboystoys Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 I know Unc,Not good at all. Between me and John we are using half the North Sea Oil quota on a weekly basis! Keeps me in a job though so shouldn't complain Was going to give shagger a phone to see if he was up and about, you around this afternoon? Might pop and see you was planning to go and take a drive out to see the Rock in Airth. was at the bowls this afternoon mate but will catch you next time i better check the garges to see if there running short off oil .unc shagger no on hols Link to comment
Casper Spec D Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 You said there isn't any smoke when driving but you could be burning oil still and the down pipe cat and the other boxes after that could be absorbing it and that's why you can't see it.I had a simalir problem with my old cavy turbo and when i went for a straight thru you then seen the smoke and it was the valve stem oil seal's.A hope you get it sorted mate Link to comment
ScottyRB320 Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 You said there isn't any smoke when driving but you could be burning oil still and the down pipe cat and the other boxes after that could be absorbing it and that's why you can't see it.I had a simalir problem with my old cavy turbo and when i went for a straight thru you then seen the smoke and it was the valve stem oil seal's.A hope you get it sorted mate Thanks for the heads up Casper, something else for the lads to check - Good info mate and i will add it to the list of things to be investigated. I am 100% certain the cats and other boxes are absorbing the oil, the cat is tinking away like a good in even after a very short slow speed drive. Someone else has commented that because i am using fully Synth oils that we may not see as much oil smoke as we would expect, that combined with the cats absorbing the majority of it and being coked up may explain why we are not seeing any at all? Regards ScottyB Link to comment
emoe Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 GUYS!!! youre using a litre per 100 miles roughtly!! if you still have the cat on the car, and the turbo seals are pumping oil into the exhaust, then the EGT will raise considerably and the Cat honeycomb will catch the oil and burn it off so fast that youll see hardly a drop of smoke out the back! if the rings were gummed, or lined up wrong, youd have NO compression to talk about, and youd use MUCH more than you are! Pull the plugs, ill bet theres hardly any residue there at all! Pull the intercooler inpipe, and you should see minimal oil. Im laying money that the intake side isnt whats using the oil. Ill also bet that the oil isnt getting past rings in that way, so id be inclined to pull the downpipe off, and have a look round the wastegate and the exhaust impeller! ill bet youll find the culprit in the turbo! If those seals go completely, then even with a cat youll get smoke out the back. But the amount youre using is probably burning off in the cat itself. And the oil consumption probably only happens when the engine is hot, and the Impeller shaft seals start to leak. If you had no cats at all, id guarantee you would see smoke!!! Link to comment
ScottyRB320 Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 (edited) GUYS!!!youre using a litre per 100 miles roughtly!! if you still have the cat on the car, and the turbo seals are pumping oil into the exhaust, then the EGT will raise considerably and the Cat honeycomb will catch the oil and burn it off so fast that youll see hardly a drop of smoke out the back! if the rings were gummed, or lined up wrong, youd have NO compression to talk about, and youd use MUCH more than you are! Pull the plugs, ill bet theres hardly any residue there at all! Pull the intercooler inpipe, and you should see minimal oil. Im laying money that the intake side isnt whats using the oil. Ill also bet that the oil isnt getting past rings in that way, so id be inclined to pull the downpipe off, and have a look round the wastegate and the exhaust impeller! ill bet youll find the culprit in the turbo! If those seals go completely, then even with a cat youll get smoke out the back. But the amount youre using is probably burning off in the cat itself. And the oil consumption probably only happens when the engine is hot, and the Impeller shaft seals start to leak. If you had no cats at all, id guarantee you would see smoke!!! Emoe, Thanks for the phone call mate, really appreciated, i owe you a beer or 10! Will investigate Turbo Seal failure as you very kindly talked me through. Will also pull the plugs and check back pressure on oil filler cap as we discussed. Will keep you posted on what i find. Regards ScottyB Edited August 11, 2008 by ScottyRB320 Link to comment
colin_ross Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Emoe - that sounds like some quality advise there but it doesn't explain the flat spot in 4th and 5th. If the oil was making its way past the rings then it'd be detting it's t!ts off and the ecu would be pulling advance like crazy, hence the flat spot. I'd do the checks you suggested and a leak down test if you have the equipement. It may well be the turbo but so soon after a rebuild my money would be on the internals. Link to comment
emoe Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Emoe - that sounds like some quality advise there but it doesn't explain the flat spot in 4th and 5th. If the oil was making its way past the rings then it'd be detting it's t!ts off and the ecu would be pulling advance like crazy, hence the flat spot.I'd do the checks you suggested and a leak down test if you have the equipement. It may well be the turbo but so soon after a rebuild my money would be on the internals. Ive spoken to him Play and the car is running fine, no det, no advance, just a flat spot. If the oil is getting into the exhaust side, the lambda will not read correctly, and about 3-5k youre pushing some serious gasses past it, coat it in oil and it just hant read properly. There is no way the car has internal problems with the rings! none whatsoever, the car was built by Prodrive, and with the way the car pulls, if the oil was in the combustion chamber from leakdown on the rings, the engine would stutter like hell under ANY accel. and also the idle would be totally crud, the ceramic insulators on the plugs would be fouled BADLY and cause weak spark throughout the rev range. Ill still put money on the turbo leaking oil into the exhaust. Link to comment
colin_ross Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Like I said it's a fair suggestion and may well prove to be the case. A leakdown test or a look at the plugs will go a long way to confirm or disprove this. Believe me, I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this one. I'm not doubting the built quality for a second but to err is human and even the pro's drop a bollock now and then. Link to comment
emoe Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Like I said it's a fair suggestion and may well prove to be the case. A leakdown test or a look at the plugs will go a long way to confirm or disprove this. Believe me, I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this one.I'm not doubting the built quality for a second but to err is human and even the pro's drop a bollock now and then. Oh yes i quite agree Play, youre right, even to top people can make a mistake. and if it does turn out to be rings then i promise to wash your car for you!! The reason i cant see it being rings is because of the way the car runs normally, theres only that one band it fouls in. That could also be down to something else, the AFR sensor they have running in that car may be linked to a variator in the ECU, there is no end of possibilities on a car of this spec. I did however go through the pulling plugs and checking the compression, but to be honest, i still believe the best thing is to speak to Prodrive and get them to look at this as well. Just a note, this car is NOT STANDARD, it was a one off Prototype with a lot of Race spec parts homologated for the use on this car. Link to comment
ScottyRB320 Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 Fight...Fight...Fight......... Too good an opportunity to miss guys, how about we say the one who gets it wrong donates 25 quid to the Richard Burns Foundation and i will match it so they get 50 quid.......Interested???????? Had a chat with Mike Wood at Prodrive, keeping what he said close to my chest until you 2 commit yourselves to the gentlemans bet...... For fairness i will take photos of the cause once discovered so no foul play can be called. So who's going to bottle it.......??? Regards ScottyB Link to comment
emoe Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Fight...Fight...Fight......... Too good an opportunity to miss guys, how about we say the one who gets it wrong donates 25 quid to the Richard Burns Foundation and i will match it so they get 50 quid.......Interested???????? Had a chat with Mike Wood at Prodrive, keeping what he said close to my chest until you 2 commit yourselves to the gentlemans bet...... For fairness i will take photos of the cause once discovered so no foul play can be called. So who's going to bottle it.......??? Regards ScottyB I may be wrong, it has been known, and without seeing the car its always hard, but id give £25 to richard burns. Im in for the Bet! Link to comment
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