The Great Global Warming "hack"

[scoobnoob]

Sorry guys, I’ve read through this thread and just can’t see why a lot of you are so against trying to reduce the amount of pollution we create. I can understand what your saying about the hypocrisy and corruption of the politicians, and big companies using it for their own benefit, but that’s just the capitalist society we live in; and as much as we like to complain about it we also enjoy the benefits of it. But overall less pollution and burning of the rainforests can surely only be a good thing, whether it reduces global warming or not?

If anything, the introduction of more fuel efficient cars means more oil left for the less fuel efficient cars, scoobies!

Also to say ‘humans actually prosper in periods of global warming’ and ‘Be grateful for climate change’ is easy when you don’t have waves lapping at your front door. Like most things in this world, it wont be us that will be worst effected, it will be the poorest people

I’d like to see someone explain to them that they should be grateful for climate change!

[cullenmin]

The fact that we, the UK, is such a small percentage of the worlds pollutant and yet were the ones getting raped with GREEN taxes to fund the governments mess/debts takes the piss

[bmwhere?]

The fact that we, the UK, is such a small percentage of the worlds pollutant and yet were the ones getting raped with GREEN taxes to fund the governments mess/debts takes the piss

Don't think that its just the UK that has green taxes! Sure the UK is pretty heavy on green taxes, but then they're pretty light in other areas! Here in Germany I'm paying around 45% income tax, and that's the basic rate for a single man, not a high earning tax bracket! Fuel tax and road tax are also escalating here, I'm just grateful they're still a bit cheaper than the UK, but in the end I'm probably paying more tax than I would in the UK!

In the end, the government needs to balance the books, which means taxing the people. If they don't levy the green taxes, they'll be raising other taxes, however they do it, you're going to pay the same tax and you're not going to like it!

As scoobnoob points out, saving energy and burning less fossil fuels is really not a bad thing and if green taxes can help to change peoples attitudes so they start saving energy or become more accepting of renewable energy, then surely indirect green taxes are a better way than direct income tax! If you want to save some tax, you can become more energy efficient and be much better off, otherwise you can keep consuming and pay the price!

I don't see why people have to be on one side or the other. Personally I'm pretty sure that global warming is not or very little to do with us humans, although I'm not completely closed to the possibility although from what I can see, deforestation and methane production are the most likely causes and CO2 is largely irrelevant. One thing I'm certainly not against is being more energy efficient. I'm not prepared to give up my Scooby just yet and am willing to pay the price for keeping it, I do however compensate with saving energy in other areas of my life.

[thewelsho]

Sorry guys, I’ve read through this thread and just can’t see why a lot of you are so against trying to reduce the amount of pollution we create. I can understand what your saying about the hypocrisy and corruption of the politicians, and big companies using it for their own benefit, but that’s just the capitalist society we live in; and as much as we like to complain about it we also enjoy the benefits of it. But overall less pollution and burning of the rainforests can surely only be a good thing, whether it reduces global warming or not?

If anything, the introduction of more fuel efficient cars means more oil left for the less fuel efficient cars, scoobies!

Also to say ‘humans actually prosper in periods of global warming’ and ‘Be grateful for climate change’ is easy when you don’t have waves lapping at your front door. Like most things in this world, it wont be us that will be worst effected, it will be the poorest people

I’d like to see someone explain to them that they should be grateful for climate change!

Look, AGW is NOT caused by humans, bottom line, therefore, the reason for this thread. However, no one is going to argue with you when you say that we should be less destructive (rainforests etc.) and no one is will argue that we should be less wasteful. However, joining up the two with AGW is where you will meet disagreement.

Green Taxing is nothing more than a means of ripping us off and that is why people are getting a bit irrate to say the least.

[scoobnoob]

To be honest I’m personally not that interested in the actual science behind the debate. I’m not a scientist myself and I can’t travel into the future to tell you one way or another who’s right or wrong

The only thing I’m interested in is the by product of the debate, which will hopefully be less pollution and wastefulness of natural resources

And if politicians want to tax us excessively for it, then we can always vote them out in the next election

Edited December 8, 2009 by scoobnoob

[oobster]

Look, AGW is NOT caused by humans, bottom line, therefore, the reason for this thread. However, no one is going to argue with you when you say that we should be less destructive (rainforests etc.) and no one is will argue that we should be less wasteful. However, joining up the two with AGW is where you will meet disagreement.

Green Taxing is nothing more than a means of ripping us off and that is why people are getting a bit irrate to say the least.

Of course it is, any sensible person of reasonable inteligence knows it's a rip-off but so what?

What are you, me, we going to do about it? Probably f-all. Apathy is widespread when it comes to what the government do and don't do for us. Vote Tory, because they will be no better than the current mob. Vote SNP or any of the others and they will be the same - full of promises to get your vote, then only interested in lining their own pockets and going on all-expenses-paid junkets to foreign shores any chance they get. Or lining themselves up for directors of companies once they retire or are voted out.

What other options have you got other than just accepting it? Don't vote? While the turnout for local and national elections are in decline due to the apathy thing there are too many people who have this ingrained "it's my right to vote so I am going to excercise my right" mentality that your abstinence makes no difference. Emigrate? Then you'll just need to put up with another bunch of incompetent power-hungry eejits in another country.

Or we could all get together and start a petition, march on downing street holding placards, or write letters to all our MP's. Yea, because they'll listen to a dozen or so Subaru enthusiasts.

But wait! What if we get 100 of us together from various forums? They still won't listen. Let's get a thousand then! Yea, they still won't listen. Ten thousand then! Good luck with that - people (in general) just don't care enough. They have their own daily lives to get on with and I can't see a significant amount of people getting up off their a***s and doing something about it.

Yes I know it's ****, and will continue to be ****, but what else is there do other than accept the situation and just get on with your life regardless?

[thefastone]

And Again, agreeing with John there, Global warming is a bad joke, but you know what,

I'm all for renewable energy, but not because it reduces carbon footprint - Because it doesn't - the emissions required to manufacture, install and maintain nearly cancels out the good they do. But we do need to find ways of producing more energy as the population grows, and there's a gadget for everything, we need to power it somehow...

I'm all for recycling, but not because it reduces carbon footprint - Because it doesn't - the emissions required to recycle is not small. But is does save mining for more material, and gives us another industry for supporting the workforce.

You say that about the waves lapping at your door, but very often, people choose to move to areas where there will be flooding, often the water is kept back with man-made defences, and when they fail, they blame global warming. Some People say that the tsunamis are caused by Global warming, Em, no, they were caused by Earthquakes, that had nothing to do with global warming. that big storm that you just pointed to, well, what, you think that we did that? are you mental?

to be honest, we need to spend less time crying about GW, and more time adapting how we deal with the problems that the earth that we live on presents, its all about engineering the future, adapt and overcome, just dont tax us with fear of drowning, when its not true.

[thefastone]

Of course it is, any sensible person of reasonable inteligence knows it's a rip-off but so what?

What are you, me, we going to do about it? Probably f-all. Apathy is widespread when it comes to what the government do and don't do for us. Vote Tory, because they will be no better than the current mob. Vote SNP or any of the others and they will be the same - full of promises to get your vote, then only interested in lining their own pockets and going on all-expenses-paid junkets to foreign shores any chance they get. Or lining themselves up for directors of companies once they retire or are voted out.

What other options have you got other than just accepting it? Don't vote? While the turnout for local and national elections are in decline due to the apathy thing there are too many people who have this ingrained "it's my right to vote so I am going to excercise my right" mentality that your abstinence makes no difference. Emigrate? Then you'll just need to put up with another bunch of incompetent power-hungry eejits in another country.

Or we could all get together and start a petition, march on downing street holding placards, or write letters to all our MP's. Yea, because they'll listen to a dozen or so Subaru enthusiasts.

But wait! What if we get 100 of us together from various forums? They still won't listen. Let's get a thousand then! Yea, they still won't listen. Ten thousand then! Good luck with that - people (in general) just don't care enough. They have their own daily lives to get on with and I can't see a significant amount of people getting up off their a***s and doing something about it.

Yes I know it's ****, and will continue to be ****, but what else is there do other than accept the situation and just get on with your life regardless?

Sad, but true...

[zeolite]

mmmmm. Seems my blog reviews haven't been that useful.

Welsho...I am not surprised that you had a hard job with Pilmers book considering what you have said in the past about your beliefs and your criticism of radio isotope science. This is the main dating tool for the vast majority of Geological science and without it a lot of what he says I am sure will not make sense. there are other tools such as fossil scales and paeleomagnetism but I don't think they impress you either. Anyway I hope you get something out of it.

4Hero...Man you are on a crusade! As far as I can make out AGW is NOT proven but that doesn't mean to say it is a lie. I just don't think there is enough evidence. I find it hard to believe that humankind could affect the Earths' climate but I still have an open mind about it. There hasn't been a long enough period nor enough data yet. However as a geologist I tend to think in 10s of thousands rather than tens of years. Having said that some things can happen very quickly even in geological time.

[scoobnoob]

To ‘thefastone’, where did I say we caused that storm?

[thewelsho]

Sad, but true...

Yup, my thoughts too.

[thewelsho]

mmmmm. Seems my blog reviews haven't been that useful.

Welsho...I am not surprised that you had a hard job with Pilmers book considering what you have said in the past about your beliefs and your criticism of radio isotope science. This is the main dating tool for the vast majority of Geological science and without it a lot of what he says I am sure will not make sense. there are other tools such as fossil scales and paeleomagnetism but I don't think they impress you either. Anyway I hope you get something out of it.

To the contrary, I enjoyed reading your last, lengthy post.

Its not so much one dating method or the other, its dating methodology period. People don't realise that, regardless of the dating method in question, supposition plays a big part. And where there is supposition, there is no certainty. Also, Plimer recounts climate history with such startling detail, going back millions of years... how is this possible unless one is there to witness such??? How can he, on the one hand give such scathing dissproval of climate models based on guess-work etc. but on the other hand, "prove" geological climate change with such certainty using a different set of guesses? Given the wide range of references that he has read and quoted, it would appear that there is a consensus among geolgists at least, of these climate-swings in the distant past. Which means, geologists who are pro-AGW are ignoring data from their own field. So whether the science is right or wrong, makes no difference, as all (generally speaking) parties accept said data.

Nevertheless, his climate-change information/history for recent times, for which there are witness records, habits, migrations etc. etc. is compelling reading, at least in my tiny mind. Mr. Plimer's book has, for the present at least, given way to a photoghraphy book! I'll get back to it though

A word about Andy's post: As Dale said "sad, but true". There is nothing we really can do. For me, this is more frustrating than having this AGW racket forced down my throat. I couldn't agree more regarding your assessment of government (all parties, all countries). As I have said in other places: "Democracy... an illusion".

Apologies, that was a bit off-top.

Edited December 9, 2009 by TheWelsho

[thefastone]

Also to say ‘humans actually prosper in periods of global warming’ and ‘Be grateful for climate change’ is easy when you don’t have waves lapping at your front door. Like most things in this world, it wont be us that will be worst effected, it will be the poorest people

I’d like to see someone explain to them that they should be grateful for climate change!

To ‘thefastone’, where did I say we caused that storm?

As per your previous post... it does appear to be the point that your making...

[scoobnoob]

I was just suggesting that global warming appears to be taking place; in that particular example the rising sea levels contributed to the effect the storm had. But I didn’t suggest the storm was man made, or global warming in general is man made. I think the science behind proving that argument one way or another is irrelevant. The one thing I can see first hand is the waste and pollution we create, and that needs to change. So if that means bringing countries together under the banner of global warming (whether its man made or not, or even happening at all), it might be the only initiative to stop these massive companies producing even more pollution and waste

As for the apathy, voting and general nothing we can do attitude, I know what your saying, we are governed by a bunch of *******s. But that’s just what capitalism is all about:-

‘In capitalist society, an economic minority dominate and exploit the working class majority’

But as much as we moan about it, we still enjoy the good aspects of it. I personally consider myself very lucky to live here, as we’ve got it pretty good in comparison to a lot of the places I’ve been to, where people don’t have houses and just sleep on the ground, or dig through waste grounds with their bare feet and hands for a living. So if I have to pay a few extra taxes then so what, at least I’m not living in a shack next to a chemicals factory

I reckon a ‘Global warming debate track day’ would sort this out once and for all?

[scoobnoob]

Also for anyone else who thinks we’ve got it bad here, get a hold of a copy of this, it’ll make you realise how lucky we are:-

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0309061/

[bmwhere?]

I'm all for renewable energy, but not because it reduces carbon footprint - Because it doesn't - the emissions required to manufacture, install and maintain nearly cancels out the good they do.

That is true at the moment because we don't currently have the renewable energy available in the production of new renewable sources. The more renewable energy sources we have online, then the less non renewable energy is used in the production and the saving margins increase exponentially!

[thewelsho]

... we still enjoy the good aspects of it. I personally consider myself very lucky to live here, as we’ve got it pretty good in comparison to a lot of the places I’ve been to, where people don’t have houses and just sleep on the ground, or dig through waste grounds with their bare feet and hands for a living. So if I have to pay a few extra taxes then so what, at least I’m not living in a shack next to a chemicals factory

Really can't argue with that, defo worthwhile to count our blessings and its worth dwelling on the positive, rather than the negative.

[soundie]

After writing a complaint letter to the BBC i'm glad to see a little bit more (honest) coverage of late,

relevant here,

so,

some very rational agruments put forward by michael portillo on the BBC's programme "this week" tonight. I urge you to have a look at the first 10 mins, for anyone else concerned about how the BBC are covering it.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pb...eek_10_12_2009/

[thewelsho]

After writing a complaint letter to the BBC i'm glad to see a little bit more (honest) coverage of late,

relevant here,

so,

some very rational agruments put forward by michael portillo on the BBC's programme "this week" tonight. I urge you to have a look at the first 10 mins, for anyone else concerned about how the BBC are covering it.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00pb...eek_10_12_2009/

Could have fooled me. BBC news is awash with the Copenhagen crap with presenters forcasting all manner of gloom and doom if action is not taken. Any breakthrough of a turnaround from this nonsense is surely dead in the water

I thought Partillo and the presenter guy in particular, put up a very damning arguement against the one who called us all idiots (and a very ugly presenter he was too. If he had argued that ugliness was a symptom of AGW, he would have gotten my vote for sure). What is Cohen all about? Where does he get off calling people idiots simply because they disagree with his point of view? Ph D standard scientists and Nobel proze winners are idiots because, because well, some ugly journo said so. Go back under your rock mate and give us all peace!

Edited December 11, 2009 by TheWelsho