Impreza Wrx 1996/7

[DDSK]

H Anyhow i guys

I'm no technical expert on cars but I can dabble :-). I have a 5 door Impreza WRX 2L turbo P reg. Following a replacement of the internal heater Matrix early in the year a friend that did it said don't forget to put some anti freeze in !. Guess what my brain was left someplace, and I duly forgot. I can see your minds ticking guys saying what a wally....I agree :-). Normally though I am reasonably sensible. Anyhow came the very cold snap in mid December and I didn't drive the car for three days. Came to start it for work, and it fired up as normal so I left it to heat up. I noticed that it had stopped, so went out to restart it. It did restart but I realised no heat coming from the heater, and then the penny dropped !. I hadn't put any anti freeze in, and there was deffinately chunks of ice that I could feel in the lower radiator pipe. I immediately purchased some anti freeze, and got the engine, not overly hot, about a third up the temp scale. Turned it off and put in 2 litres of the anti freeze. Left it for a couple of days, and went to try again. This time the check engine light came on and it would only fire in stages with the assistance of the starter motor, and my holding down the gas pedal. A friend recommended a local garage so I struggled the half mile to get it there. They commenced by eliminating the water circulation problems and that amounted to a lot of money. They couldn't resolve the starting problem though, ( well not without wanting to change all the coil packs and plugs). Being overstretched as it was I retrieved the car. I tell you this story not to make me look an idiot, although I can accept I have been. But so you get the whole picture. Now I am left with my scooby with the check engine light on permanently, and it will only start with the aid of the starter motor after a few minutes. Seems like a cylinder starts, then builds, then others fire etc until it eventually revs up, and after a minute or two I can allow it to idle at 1000 revs where it stays. The cooling system is all working perfectly now, but obviously I am looking for a solution to this starting problem. I should add that once warmed up, and a run around the block, I can turn it off and re start a few minutes later without any problem. But if I leave it say a day, I get exactly the same again, and throughout all these scenarios, the check engine light stays on.

Without bruising me any further :-). Can anyone assist with ideas of what is the most likely cause....hmmmm.

Thanks in advance.

ddsk.

[fmj]

H Anyhow i guys

I'm no technical expert on cars but I can dabble :-). I have a 5 door Impreza WRX 2L turbo P reg. Following a replacement of the internal heater Matrix early in the year a friend that did it said don't forget to put some anti freeze in !. Guess what my brain was left someplace, and I duly forgot. I can see your minds ticking guys saying what a wally....I agree :-). Normally though I am reasonably sensible. Anyhow came the very cold snap in mid December and I didn't drive the car for three days. Came to start it for work, and it fired up as normal so I left it to heat up. I noticed that it had stopped, so went out to restart it. It did restart but I realised no heat coming from the heater, and then the penny dropped !. I hadn't put any anti freeze in, and there was deffinately chunks of ice that I could feel in the lower radiator pipe. I immediately purchased some anti freeze, and got the engine, not overly hot, about a third up the temp scale. Turned it off and put in 2 litres of the anti freeze. Left it for a couple of days, and went to try again. This time the check engine light came on and it would only fire in stages with the assistance of the starter motor, and my holding down the gas pedal. A friend recommended a local garage so I struggled the half mile to get it there. They commenced by eliminating the water circulation problems and that amounted to a lot of money. They couldn't resolve the starting problem though, ( well not without wanting to change all the coil packs and plugs). Being overstretched as it was I retrieved the car. I tell you this story not to make me look an idiot, although I can accept I have been. But so you get the whole picture. Now I am left with my scooby with the check engine light on permanently, and it will only start with the aid of the starter motor after a few minutes. Seems like a cylinder starts, then builds, then others fire etc until it eventually revs up, and after a minute or two I can allow it to idle at 1000 revs where it stays. The cooling system is all working perfectly now, but obviously I am looking for a solution to this starting problem. I should add that once warmed up, and a run around the block, I can turn it off and re start a few minutes later without any problem. But if I leave it say a day, I get exactly the same again, and throughout all these scenarios, the check engine light stays on.

Without bruising me any further :-). Can anyone assist with ideas of what is the most likely cause....hmmmm.

Thanks in advance.

ddsk.

Have you checked what fault code the ecu is throwing up?

[Big 'D']

As above,

How to read ECU fault codes

What the codes mean

Cheers Iain

[DDSK]

As above,

How to read ECU fault codes

What the codes mean

Cheers Iain

Hi Iain

Hmmmmm. I know the guy in the garage said that my model doesn't have OBD codes, or at least he said you link connectors

with a jumper wire, and then read off the dash. I guess he meant reading the check engine light which I assume clicks on, and

off, and you have to read that code. I had a look at the pulse train picture, and my first thought was oh my god how does anyone

know the flash is 0.2 seconds, or 1.3, or whatever. It must be understood I guess, but sounds difficult to me. I am not an auto guy

I am an electronics guy though and can make anything :-), and I know morse code hahahahaha!, but this seems a nightmare waiting

to happen :-). You can tell I have no clue what fault code comes up. The guy in the garage I took it to seemed to know exactly what

he was about, but when he said we would start by changing the ignition coils, I thought hang on a minute I thought this thing told you

what was wrong.....surely you can appreciate that I was not headed to spending more money without being sure. Not that I'm a skinflint

Iain, simply I was laid off, and can only just pay the mortgage...enough said on that. Anyhow I do want to have a go. Life would be simpler

if I could build an interface and plug it into a laptop to read the code from the screen, but I don't see any info for doing that anywhere.

Okay, well I guess I have to plug the two flying Black plug/sockets together and see what happens.

Cheers,

ddsk

[Big 'D']

Hi Iain

Hmmmmm. I know the guy in the garage said that my model doesn't have OBD codes, or at least he said you link connectors

with a jumper wire, and then read off the dash. I guess he meant reading the check engine light which I assume clicks on, and

off, and you have to read that code. I had a look at the pulse train picture, and my first thought was oh my god how does anyone

know the flash is 0.2 seconds, or 1.3, or whatever. It must be understood I guess, but sounds difficult to me. I am not an auto guy

I am an electronics guy though and can make anything :-), and I know morse code hahahahaha!, but this seems a nightmare waiting

to happen :-). You can tell I have no clue what fault code comes up. The guy in the garage I took it to seemed to know exactly what

he was about, but when he said we would start by changing the ignition coils, I thought hang on a minute I thought this thing told you

what was wrong.....surely you can appreciate that I was not headed to spending more money without being sure. Not that I'm a skinflint

Iain, simply I was laid off, and can only just pay the mortgage...enough said on that. Anyhow I do want to have a go. Life would be simpler

if I could build an interface and plug it into a laptop to read the code from the screen, but I don't see any info for doing that anywhere.

Okay, well I guess I have to plug the two flying Black plug/sockets together and see what happens.

Cheers,

ddsk

The classics do have a built in OBD (again people not knowing what they are talking about), connect the 2 wires under the dash (drivers side) with the ignition off, turn on the ignition to the on position (dash lights on), and the check engine light will flash a code, slow flashes = x10 and fast ones =x1 so for example 2 fast and 3 slow would = 23 ( the difference between the flashes is obvious and there may be more than one code so watch it carefully, concentrate on one code at a time, take a pen and paper to jot the numbers down, if there is more than one code it will flash them all then have a slightly longer pause than normal then start again, this will repeat until the ecu is reset) You will see what I mean when you do it mate.

Have a go its easy, just dont forget to unplug the connectors when you have finnished, do this with the ignition 'off'.

Cheers Iain

[DDSK]

The classics do have a built in OBD (again people not knowing what they are talking about), connect the 2 wires under the dash (drivers side) with the ignition off, turn on the ignition to the on position (dash lights on), and the check engine light will flash a code, slow flashes = x10 and fast ones =x1 so for example 2 fast and 3 slow would = 23 ( the difference between the flashes is obvious and there may be more than one code so watch it carefully, concentrate on one code at a time, take a pen and paper to jot the numbers down, if there is more than one code it will flash them all then have a slightly longer pause than normal then start again, this will repeat until the ecu is reset) You will see what I mean when you do it mate.

Have a go its easy, just dont forget to unplug the connectors when you have finnished, do this with the ignition 'off'.

Cheers Iain

Hi Iain

All okay I will give it a go :-). Just nipped out to see where the plug/sockets were under the dash by the column. I saw the two single spaded black ones, but the picture I have also showed a pair of green ones which look like twin bladed ones. I couldn't see the green ones anywhere. There was a four way orangeish looking one in the same loom, so maybe mine is different. Someone also suggested that as the block had frozen, it might be a good idea to check the cylinder head gasket hasnt fractured. I know in the past I have checked compression by taking a plug out, and putting a sealed probe into the cylinder getting someone to crank the car :-), but I looked at this engine (shows you how behind the plot I am) and I know it uses individual coils bolted onto the block with the plugs behind obviously :-). Not having that many "big" tools I thought well that looks a pig to get at :-). Funny really because I have a workshop full of tools and test gear, but they are all lightweight electronic type tools not auto repair ones hahahahahahaha. Mind you Iain I knew this wasn't going to be easy peasy for a novice like me despite the fact I'm 61 :-). But I will have a go, in the morning and see if I can read the/those codes. I understand about the longer flashes representing a ten, and the short ones a one. So maybe I will surprise myself :-).

Anyhow it is very good of you to respond, and I do appreciate it truly.

Take care, and I will get back on the flip side with better infor hopefully :-).

Cheers Iain.

ddsk.....actually Dave :-).

[paul n]

Follow Iain's advise you'll be fine

Had the same symptoms a while ago on our 95UK Turbo, pig to start cold, fine once started or luke warm, turned out to be the engine coolant temperature sensor, ours also had the cooling fans running permanantly, the sensor was telling the ECU the engine was warm when it was cold, stopping the cold start device working

Good luck & hope your soon sorted

Edited December 29, 2008 by Paul N

[Big 'D']

Hi Dave

If the car runs normally when warm then that would suggest that there is nothing wrong with your block/engine on a mechanical basis (without seeing the car I could not say for sure), forget the green plugs mate they are for testing other things (fuel pump, boost solenoid, rad fans etc) the single pin black ones are the ones you want. You will be surprised how easy it is to read the codes mate, if you have any issues just get back on here and post up, lets us know what you find mate, I is very possible that it is what paul has suggested but the only way to be sure is by reading the codes.

Cheers Iain

[DDSK]

Hi Dave

If the car runs normally when warm then that would suggest that there is nothing wrong with your block/engine on a mechanical basis (without seeing the car I could not say for sure), forget the green plugs mate they are for testing other things (fuel pump, boost solenoid, rad fans etc) the single pin black ones are the ones you want. You will be surprised how easy it is to read the codes mate, if you have any issues just get back on here and post up, lets us know what you find mate, I is very possible that it is what paul has suggested but the only way to be sure is by reading the codes.

Cheers Iain

Hi Paul, and Iain.

Well here is a list of the stuff the guy changed. I admit I haven't looked after my scooby as well as I should have done, but then I liked the car so I bought it :-). I do love it I must say, and wouldn't like to part with it despite the fact it probably isn't worth a lot these days :-).

Coolant Thermostat changed 15.00

Timing Belt Kit changed (that was way overdue I think)

150.00

Water Pump Changed 65.00

Drive Belt Changed 11.25

Radiator Changed (I saw the leak) 130.00

Cooling pipe changed. It had a fissure in it, and steam did come out of it. 36.25

Engine Temperature sensor 28.25

Those prices were net, plus his labour and vat at 15% so whilst I don't think they are excessive, I could see the bill spiralling out of control,

and to be absolutely honest was worried about when or where that cost might stop. Not only that I daren't spend too much more :-). Realistically

I know I will have too, but hopefully with some guidance I can limit that..... I love the car, but the roof over our head comes first :-).

Thanks again guys I will keep you posted once I see the flashing lights in the morning :-). I will have my pen and paper at the ready Iain :-).

Cheers and Beers,

Dave

[DDSK]

Follow Iain's advise you'll be fine

Had the same symptoms a while ago on our 95UK Turbo, pig to start cold, fine once started or luke warm, turned out to be the engine coolant temperature sensor, ours also had the cooling fans running permanantly, the sensor was telling the ECU the engine was warm when it was cold, stopping the cold start device working

Good luck & hope your soon sorted

Hiya again Paul. Wasn't sure if I could reply easily to both yourself and Iain. But I realised that I think my fan runs immediately too......hmmm I

must check that out in the morning. Where abouts is that temp sensor located ?. Don't have a manual. In fact I couldn't find a manual at our local car parts store...everything else but in fact :-)

Cheers

Dave

[paul n]

Hi Dave,

Worth checking fans, but as Iain says codes will prove it if it is the sensor

Running from memory now, but sensor located under inlet manifold on drivers side, it's a bit fiddly but can be removed with a socket, check your codes, if needed I'll get a pic of ours tomorrow night

Looking at the previous post it seems the sensor has been changed, wonder if the plug is fully pushed home?

[DDSK]

Hi Dave,

Worth checking fans, but as Iain says codes will prove it if it is the sensor

Running from memory now, but sensor located under inlet manifold on drivers side, it's a bit fiddly but can be removed with a socket, check your codes, if needed I'll get a pic of ours tomorrow night

Looking at the previous post it seems the sensor has been changed, wonder if the plug is fully pushed home?

Yep it looked like he had changed it, but I haven't actually looked :-). Can the sensor be tested by it's resistance. I know I have checked central heating temp sensors by warming them up and cooling them whilst looking at their electrical resistance. That would save dragging it out if I knew if I could check it by that method. Knowing what it was when cold, and hot would be handy :-). Anyhoo I will brave the frost in the morning and have a check of the code reading first :-). I might learn something hahahahahaha.

Cheers Paul, and thanks.

Dave

[DDSK]

Hi Dave

If the car runs normally when warm then that would suggest that there is nothing wrong with your block/engine on a mechanical basis (without seeing the car I could not say for sure), forget the green plugs mate they are for testing other things (fuel pump, boost solenoid, rad fans etc) the single pin black ones are the ones you want. You will be surprised how easy it is to read the codes mate, if you have any issues just get back on here and post up, lets us know what you find mate, I is very possible that it is what paul has suggested but the only way to be sure is by reading the codes.

Cheers Iain

Hi Iain, and Paul.

Well sure enough the cooling fan came on straight away even though it was -4C when I went out :-). Anyhow, I did the code check and it came back with 21, the coolant temp sensor. I looked but couldn't find the beast.....anyhow I decided to disconnect the battery to see if the ecu came back with the same fault afterwards. Well, left the battery off for half an hour, re connected it, re ran the test and the warning light was flashing on, and off evenly, no sign of any fault code. So I switched off, unplugged the black spaded connectors, and then switched back on. Ignition immediately, no warning light on at all. So I was absolutely elated you can't imagine. Almost punched the roof lining with my fist hahahahahahaha.

Then I decided to take it around the block. The temp guage duly rose to it's normal mid position, and I came back thinking I'm sure the heater is no longer pumping out any hot air. It was when the fault showed. Hmmm it seemed luke warm, so I lifted the hood, and felt the top hose. Sure enough it was hot :-). Felt the bottom hose, and that didn't seem hot at all. Not only that but the rad seemed to get a lot cooler the farther I moved my hand across it from the top hose end towards the fan. Well I know it is damned cold out there, and I may be deceiving myself now. But I think

I should leave it idling for a while without the air chill factor cooling it down, and see what happens. Question though, does, or would the timing belt have to be removed to change the water pump ?. It doesn't look like the timing belt cover has ever been removed....strange.

Cheers

Dave

[paul n]

Very strange, did the car start straight away?

Maybe an air lock? was the water level full in the header tank & is it full after it's been running, then stood if you know what I mean?

[Big 'D']

Like Paul has mentioned it could be an airlock, also your thermostat could be stuck shut, the thermostat keeps the water from circulating round the radiator when the engine is cold to help warm it up a bit quicker it will only open when the engine is warm or the worst case is that it is your waterpump.

Cheers Iain

[DDSK]

Like Paul has mentioned it could be an airlock, also your thermostat could be stuck shut, the thermostat keeps the water from circulating round the radiator when the engine is cold to help warm it up a bit quicker it will only open when the engine is warm or the worst case is that it is your waterpump.

Cheers Iain

Hi guys

Okay about an airlock. Well I opened the header tank and was careful obviously, coolant did ooze out, as I released it a little, It didn't seem hot though even though the temp guage was half way. Later I went out and ran it up again, this time leaving it idling for a good ten to fifteen mins. Seemed okay, so I took it round the block again, and got the impression the heat level output into tha car was changing from hot, to cooler. Got back and sat watching it whilst it idled, and I played with different fan / temp settings with the controls. Then I noticed the temp guage had risen from mid range up towards the top of the guage. Didn't leave it running after that. You notice when I gave you the list of parts the garage changed, and in that list are both the temp thermostat, and the water pump. So I may go knocking on his door in the morning and telling him the ignition fault is cleared, but why he never thought of removing the battery, or reading the code to find it gave 21 is completely beyond me. He is after all a professional mechanic. How do I know he has changed the thermostat, and water pump. I don't know whereabouts they are to go look :-).

I thought these were sealed cooling systems under pressure, and any air would be eventually forced through the header and vented out to the coolant filler pipe, or am I talking twaddle :-). How would I prove there was an airlock, and remove it ?.

Thanks guys. You have been more help to me than the guy who took my dough :-).

Cheers

Dave

[Big 'D']

Hi guys

Okay about an airlock. Well I opened the header tank and was careful obviously, coolant did ooze out, as I released it a little, It didn't seem hot though even though the temp guage was half way. Later I went out and ran it up again, this time leaving it idling for a good ten to fifteen mins. Seemed okay, so I took it round the block again, and got the impression the heat level output into tha car was changing from hot, to cooler. Got back and sat watching it whilst it idled, and I played with different fan / temp settings with the controls. Then I noticed the temp guage had risen from mid range up towards the top of the guage. Didn't leave it running after that. You notice when I gave you the list of parts the garage changed, and in that list are both the temp thermostat, and the water pump. So I may go knocking on his door in the morning and telling him the ignition fault is cleared, but why he never thought of removing the battery, or reading the code to find it gave 21 is completely beyond me. He is after all a professional mechanic. How do I know he has changed the thermostat, and water pump. I don't know whereabouts they are to go look :-).

I thought these were sealed cooling systems under pressure, and any air would be eventually forced through the header and vented out to the coolant filler pipe, or am I talking twaddle :-). How would I prove there was an airlock, and remove it ?.

Thanks guys. You have been more help to me than the guy who took my dough :-).

Cheers

Dave

Hi again

Airlocking is a common fault on the scoob after a coolant change or rad change etc, you can assist the air out of the system by squeezing the rad pipes prior to running the engine (with the header tank cap off), you can actually hear the air in the system if it is there, once it is gone you will feel the pipe/s get harder to squeeze, as the thermostat has been changed that would be my next port of call to make sure it is in the right way round, the fact that the water pump has been changed I would hazard a guess that it is not that at fault but you never know.

Cheers Iain

[paul n]

As Iain says, just to add, switch the heater to hot while bleeding

[DDSK]

As Iain says, just to add, switch the heater to hot while bleeding

Hi guys

Yep. I will give that a whirl first. Do I need to have the engine ticking over whilst I do it, or switched off ?

Cheers

Dave

[Big 'D']

As Iain says, just to add, switch the heater to hot while bleeding

Hi Paul

I think the heater control is just to divert where the air is coming from ie cold source or hot source it has no effect on the water supply to the matrix.

From what I could find out the thermostat is in the pipe between the rad and the water pump, as its job is to stop water from getting into the rad, until the water temp gets upto about 80deg C. Your rad fan should not kick in until 95 deg C.

Cheers Iain

[Big 'D']

Hi guys

Yep. I will give that a whirl first. Do I need to have the engine ticking over whilst I do it, or switched off ?

Cheers

Dave

Do it first switched off, then once you think you have all the air out put the cap back on start the engine and continue to squeeze the top rad pipe until the thermostat opens (you will notice this as the water will start to flow through the pipe you are squeezing) be careful these pipes get very hot mate. If the water still does not circulate then I would check your thermostat.

Cheers Iain

Edited December 30, 2008 by Big 'D'

[paul n]

Hi Paul

I think the heater control is just to divert where the air is coming from ie cold source or hot source it has no effect on the water supply to the matrix.

From what I could find out the thermostat is in the pipe between the rad and the water pump, as its job is to stop water from getting into the rad, until the water temp gets upto about 80deg C. Your rad fan should not kick in until 95 deg C.

Cheers Iain

Hi Iain,

Must confess didn't know that, but stand corrected as haven't had to look at the Scooby heater system too closly, was going on older cars

Cheers

Paul

[Big 'D']

Hi Iain,

Must confess didn't know that, but stand corrected as haven't had to look at the Scooby heater system too closly, was going on older cars

Cheers

Paul

No worries,

I only just looked into how the cooling system was layed out today myself, every day is a learning day

Cheers Iain

[paul n]

every day is a learning day

Been out of the motor trade a few years now, forget the basics change lol

[DDSK]

Do it first switched off, then once you think you have all the air out put the cap back on start the engine and continue to squeeze the top rad pipe until the thermostat opens (you will notice this as the water will start to flow through the pipe you are squeezing) be careful these pipes get very hot mate. If the water still does not circulate then I would check your thermostat.

Cheers Iain

Hi Iain

Okeley dokeley I will do that, and will watch I don't scald myself :-). I downloaded a manual today, and it's quite comprehensive except

for the cooling system. Went to look where the water pump was, and the thermostat but didn't find any reference to them. Everything else

but :-). Well I will let you guys know how I get on tomorrow....later today I should say :-).

Cheers and Beers

Dave