What to do?

[zeolite]

Thinking about some of the recent posts and the fine line that a club walks in the eyes of the law. Please note that I have no particular axe to grind I just want some guidance on what to do if I did. So in my hypothetical example I get bad service from a specialist Subaru related vendor. It would a very unusual person that wouldn't want to get some payback but even if I was able to put it down to experience I would most definately want to share my experiences with my fellow club members. So how would I best go about this? It seems I can't just post my experiences because of the danger of opening the club up to legal costs and I have had some experience of that. It hurts! So I wouldn't want to do that.

To add to the first point what if the aforementioned vendor gives a SIDC discount? Surely that implies some kind of SIDC approval and doesn't that open the club up to some redress from club members that have been "ripped off" for example?

My suggestion is to have a SIDC approved vendor scheme. I realise there are difficulties with this and there will always be unhappy customers but lets face it there are one or two dealers that really take the p***. Surely we should have a moral duty to our members to warn them away from these pirates? Isn't a club about mutual support and the sharing of experiences good and bad? Also if a dodgy vendor knows that their bad service is going to hurt their pocket they will have to try that bit harder to get the custom back. I think that we should remove the discount from vendors we know don't behave in the SIDC members best interests and if member asks why such and such doesn't offer a discount we can just say they are not "approved" by the club. Surely there are no legal implications with that?

I realise that we could have two parties wanting to argue the toss over the forum and frankly why not? They will have to obey the rules like everyone else and if both sides put their points then people can make up their own minds. I have no doubts that there are idiots and pirates at both ends of the argument.

It does raise an issue about advertisers and the loss of revenue to the club if one gets into a dispute but I see no problem about getting things into the open.

I want to repeat that I have nothing to air other than a general principle and I would ask that we keep this post clear of any names so that we can debate this properly.

[Grovit]

Seems like a reaonable idea to me.

Personally I think experiences at dealers or any kind of place where work is done - eg tyre fitters, parts providers should be shared. This is a forum, where experiences and knowledge are shared and discussed.

So for example - I go to dealer A and I receive good service.

I go to dealer B and receive bad service.

If I repeat the facts of what happened on a public forum, how does this contravene the law..? Mind you all the Daily Telegraph did was repeat the facts of what had happened regarding a certain MP, and look where that go them.

I suppose then that Zeolites suggestion of dealers being approved may work - ie dealers that aren't approved may have had quality / cost issues with members in the past and are removed from the panel. I wouldn't have thought you could be accused of saying something you shouldn't simply because a dealer is not approved...?

[phil]

I am all for reasoned debate

Having an approved list also causes problems for the club

Because if you go to an "approved" dealer/supplier and you receive bad service then you would look for redress from the club!

The problem with BAD Feedback is that

It is often not factual but emotive i.e. Some one who has paid over the odd's for an item and subsequently finds it cheaper else where may post " I have been ripped off by those con merchants" hardly fair.

Do people do that when they buy their cigarettes on a friday night at 11.30 at a petrol garage and then find out buying them at Tesco's is 30p a packet cheaper

Anyway please debate away but I would ask you to refrain from specifically namimg garages/suppliers without contacting a committee member first

Thanks

[Stiks]

I see the problem with this ( apart from the legal ramifications for SIDC and poster of a libelous post) as one of consistency.

Sometimes a dealer does a great job, sometimes its crap. In Phil's analogy at least the fags all have the same carcenogenic properties!

I have seen numerous threads here, and on the other forum which have conflicting views on the merits/demerits of a particular organisation. Often it gets heated. Perception is not always reality and since this is about opinions its a dangerous area.

Also how would we/SIDC go about "approving" a supplier/vendor? Can't really see a "3 bad experiences and your out" working because its too subjective.

I am fairly clear on the organisation (Subaru approved and otherwise) that I would trust with my car.... and the ones I wouldn't let near it with a chamois ! I imagine if we all did the same excercise the lists would be very similar.

Great original post to prompt discussion and debate though.

Keith

[phil]

<< Great original post to prompt discussion and debate though >>

Here Here

[p1ggm]

<<

<< Great original post to prompt discussion and debate though >>

Here Here >>

i couldnt agree more, one point thou, there is a difference between paying over the odds..which realy doesnt bother me if i think it is worth it, (i would gladly pay more for the cars last service because of the quality of work but as it happens i got a VERY good price?? and being taken for a fool buy dealers and some of the staff.

[zeolite]

I know that this is not an easy thing to get right but I do feel that if we did get a solution then we could stop some people going to places that have a bad reputation. Here in Scotland there is a very limited number of subaru related vendors and they know that their reputation is vital. I know that both AWD and Eden Subaru have people that post on here regularly and I am sure that other dealerships monitor what is being posted here. (Which is why we have to be careful what is written)

Perhaps p1ggm could write down his experiences and email it to a mod to get the necessary "modification" to allow the rest of us to read the reason that he is so upset. Perhaps the moderator could then contact the dealership so they could post their side of the story. I know this is a lot of work for a mod but then a future in Watchdog could open up to them.

We do hear a lot of good stuff about some of the vendors. Perhaps we should do more feedback for garage work. Listing the work done, price paid and customer satisfaction. That is purely factual and we could even get receipts scanned for backup. I know this is a lot of work as everything will have to be approved before posting to avoid legal problems but it does seem that there are people out there that are ripping people off and I think we should be doing something about it. Actually I will rephrase that. I know a company that has ripped a friend off and I want to make sure people avoid them.

so come on guys let's get a way sorted.

[P1_Paul]

What about some sort of anonymous rating system. Dealers could be rated out of 5, with appropriate/subjective comments(approved by mods) by happy/unhappy customers. Could be along the lines of Dabs/Amazon review system.

I for one would have loved to have had a rated list of dealers prior to me visiting a certain dealer, in a certain town that shares it's name with a certain Australian town.

[dougster]

Again it is down to opinion and personal experience Ian.

I know plenty of people who will vouch for one garage, whilst others will bad mouth it all day long.

You mention yourself it is a difficult one, but if you come up with a solution I am sure every other BBS will want a look at it.

Just consider again the statement below, which was taken from Cameron's reply on the other thread, and which will be pretty much the same on Snet, Scoobycity, 22b, etc etc

"The opinions stated in any individual's post are clearly those of the individual. The club, however, publishes those opinions on the forums. As a publisher we still have a duty of care with respect to the content of our publications - i.e. this forum."

[P1_Paul]

Perhaps mods from this forum can take points from the countless other forums that seem to strike a fine balance.

www.civictype-r.co.uk

www.seatcupra.net (closely linked to Seat)

www.cliosport.net (huge following)

www.seatenthusiasts.co.uk

These are just a few that have forums where people can post about their experiences. SeatCupra.net have a recommended dealers sticky thread, mostly praise but dealers absent in the list would make me think twice.

[dougster]

I'll leave that one for the administrators to look at.

I moderated on Scoobynet for a few years and the site remains one of the largest car related forums in the world.

From my experience (and that of the SNet administrators) a pretty firm line was taken with regards to 'naming and shaming'. Legal proceedings threatened the site on a number of occassions and Simon de Banke(my best pal!!) nearly pulled the plug a couple of times. (wisnea me!!)

I do agree that a 'recommended' dealer item could be worthwhile.

[zeolite]

I knew that this was a thorny issue and maybe that there is no good solution but it really chaps my ar** that a big dealership is pirating peoples money and has been doing so for years. We can do something about it even if it is only via pm's. however what I would really like is for the dealerships to know that if they do rip someone off they are going to get boycotted by SIDC members. That way we can improve things for our members.

[wrxmania]

<< I see the problem with this ( apart from the legal ramifications for SIDC and poster of a libelous post) as one of consistency.

Sometimes a dealer does a great job, sometimes its crap. In Phil's analogy at least the fags all have the same carcenogenic properties!

I have seen numerous threads here, and on the other forum which have conflicting views on the merits/demerits of a particular organisation. Often it gets heated. Perception is not always reality and since this is about opinions its a dangerous area.

Also how would we/SIDC go about "approving" a supplier/vendor? Can't really see a "3 bad experiences and your out" working because its too subjective.

I am fairly clear on the organisation (Subaru approved and otherwise) that I would trust with my car.... and the ones I wouldn't let near it with a chamois ! I imagine if we all did the same excercise the lists would be very similar.

Great original post to prompt discussion and debate though.

Keith >>

Jeez Keith,

This double fatherhood lark is turning you into a right sensible geezer

[malky]

All right folks, we are looking for one last big push for prezzies for the Santa Cruz for the children of

Yorkhill. Please remember that this is being run by Scottish members & next year we could be delivering

toys to sick/under privileged kids in your area. We need all the Scottish members to dig deep to make

it a good Christmas for the kids.

PS I am high jacking all the threads as I feel quite disappointed that more members are not getting involved.

[zeolite]

Back to the topic.

[malky]

Back to the topic.

-------------------------

Cowspeed

Be prepared to get this all week & remember that i am doing this for the kids at Yorkhill.

We need all the Scottish members to help out on this one.

[zeolite]

bttt

[zeolite]

mmmmmm seems like this issue has come to a head with Cameron's apology appearing today. There must be a

way of warning club members about "genuinely" dodgy characters and vendors.

[p1ggm]

what was the compliant about???

someone can pm me the details if they dont want to post it, i am considering writing to subaru direct with complaints about dealerships

[willie]

As has been said before P1ggm - Phil and the comittee are more than happy to work on behalf of members with regard to work that you / other members are unhappy with that has been carried out by dealers/third parties. Indeed if the comittee got more feedback on dealers we could take up the whole debate directly with Subaru. however each case would need to be dealt with carefully with each side being able to respond and given the oppurtunity to make good.

Unfortuneatly none of us can comment either publicly or via PM about the current complaint involving the bbs/club. However if you wish to email the clubs solicitors about it they will comment as they see fit.

The one thing that any complaint against the bbs highlights - especially where it involves the clubs solicitors - that if the club gets dragged into a prolonged legal battle it could end up in the club spending all its funds (and thus end in the demise of the club) on defending itself. This could be caused by a non member who has nothing to do with the club. The club provides the bbs as a service to all not just members.

In my opinion I wish we didn't have these situations however it is an unfortunate comment on the world these days that people must result to threatening to sue and indeed spend more time doing that than making sure that every customer is happy.

Look at the people who spend all their time (and money) taking Microsoft to court just for the sake of trying to slow Microsoft down and spend its money.

People are too quick to threaten legal action rather than spend their time and energies attempting to sort out problems.

P1_Paul mentioned the Seatcupra.net I think they deal with this whole debate rather well and I quote from their T&C's

"3. Flame Baits vs 'Freedom of Speech'. We know that our above statements may lead some to think that this should encompass posters who have repeatedly posted what some here consider 'flame bait'.

We happen to agree - but only to a certain extent.

Dealers, Tuners and other companies. They are there to be adored and scorned, admired and admonished, revered and questioned constantly. But, there is a fine line between scorning/admonishing/questioning and defaming/wrongly accusing/slandering.

It's not always easy to know where that fine line lies, nor is it easy to always make a unanimously agreed judgement call on whether something falls under what we would constitute as allowable and what we would constitute as not.

It's easy to know what to do when something is - in our view - blatantly illegal or a mere flame-bait. We will simply delete it.

It's easy to know what to do when something is - in our view - within the acceptable realm of speaking up. We simply let it exist here, regardless of whether we think it's ridiculous or ludicrous.

But, in a case of doubt, it goes down to your own level of tolerance. Personally, in such cases, we prefer to be lenient and allow these thoughts to be heard.

There is a price for that, though; those who elect to take upon themselves a crusade on a particularly controversial issue should bear in mind that they themselves are bound to be scorned back for their views.

You cannot stand in the city square and tell everyone they are blind fools (and telling all Joe Bloggs fans that he's the worst dealer ever, or telling Fred Smith fans that he's nothing but a cheater, is exactly that - either way, you are telling those fans that they are blind fools) and do not expect it to go unnoticed. If you get a tomato in your face, you should also ask yourself if you didn't ask for it.

Having said that, it should be made clear that counter-attacking a poster is different to personally insulting someone. Telling someone that his post is ridiculous, or even that he's a liar (if you can prove that!) is not the same as telling someone "you are an idiot who should be shot to death". We will tolerate to a large extent the first; We won't tolerate to any extent the second, that is abuse plain and simple.

You will note in most of the forums mentioned Positive feedback is encouraged and as a result some quite heavy moderation goes on something which we have no desire to really do on this bbs.

Just my thoughts...

[p1ggm]

i dont want to take them to court, i would just like to bring some point to subaru themselves,

I dont know why people think i hate a certian dealership so much, they have missed the point like so many and people saying i think they are theiving scum... this is simply not true, out of interets to these people i actually got a great deal on the car, and the saleman who sold me the car was a nice and funny guy who i liked dealing with, yes i lost out on some things that was promised with the car...it is NOT the value of this that i am protesting about....its the principal of it...i dont care about the cost as i made a big saving on the car with the extras that i ordered, and when the engine managment light came on i was lied to, which is one reason why i wouldent go back.

why are people getting all high and mighty about this???

I know better etc....

I dont care what other people think

Dealers, Tuners and other companies. They are there to be adored and scorned, admired and admonished, revered and questioned constantly. But, there is a fine line between scorning/admonishing/questioning and defaming/wrongly accusing/slandering.

Are you saying that i am a lier and doing this for the fun of it?? i have never wronly accused them

[p1ggm]

why not just accept the point taht i am trying to make and move on, i have discussed it with phil and we are cool, i aint gonna keep brining it up, but if someone else has a problem i will hear them out before shouting them down

[zeolite]

Easy there Tiger

I think you might be off on a tangent there. I wasn't referring to you in this thread except as an example of an unhappy club member.

You are a club member aren't you? I know of several people who have had bad deals and i wanted to find a way of

1. Steering people away from known bad vendors

2. making vendors be more aware of the consequences of bad trading.

This was not based on your case m8

[p1ggm]

well i actually had a good experiance with a dealer today...

melviles done ma back shocks and mount....Ta