Quickest new age?

[the squiggle]

why could a 400 bhp sti not pass or pull away from a 320 bhp one??

Have you not seen the size of Gumball's belly.........

Everyone has gone on about BHP but it is torque that makes you accelarate.

A car with 1000bhp and 1lbs/ft of torque is going to be slower up the strip than one with 1bhp and 1000lbs/ft of torque

Other factors will include weight of vehicle, tyre grip and compound, aerodynamics and gearing 

[wilky]

It all depends on the ramp ratings etc as well. As has been mentioned to compare cars, its best to have all the cars on the same rollers under the same settings and conditions and weather.

When a car is rollered independantly it is very easy for someone to say to the operator, "Please alter your dyno settings to allow my car to show as much horsepower as you can."

If everyone is dynoed under the same conditions at the same time then debates like this normally dont develope, but instead turn into "He used the wrong gear..." "His settings are wrong.." "I had a bad batch of fuel.." etc etc. And the poor dyno guy gets slated.

When your car really does have 400 large ones, normally indicated by having the torque to match it, then you and everyone else will be in no doubt about it.

I rode in Gumballs car the evening after he had the TD06 installed and car mapped. I have no idea of the power it was putting out, however what I will commit to say is that he is correct to compare the preformance of the TD05/06 and the TD06 to standard STI and PPP. It was like night and day, with a bit of lag thrown in for good measures.

I will not guess power figures but if the 05/06 wasnt over 400bhp, the TD06 was.

The torque however, in my opinion was not over 360lbft, however we are talking about horses here and what you spend in torque you can cash in on bhp and ingnition advance.

Thats my tuppence haepennys worth.

Callum W

[rapidcossie]

It all depends on the ramp ratings etc as well. As has been mentioned to compare cars, its best to have all the cars on the same rollers under the same settings and conditions and weather.

When a car is rollered independantly it is very easy for someone to say to the operator, "Please alter your dyno settings to allow my car to show as much horsepower as you can."

If everyone is dynoed under the same conditions at the same time then debates like this normally dont develope, but instead turn into "He used the wrong gear..." "His settings are wrong.." "I had a bad batch of fuel.." etc etc. And the poor dyno guy gets slated.

When your car really does have 400 large ones, normally indicated by having the torque to match it, then you and everyone else will be in no doubt about it.

I rode in Gumballs car the evening after he had the TD06 installed and car mapped. I have no idea of the power it was putting out, however what I will commit to say is that he is correct to compare the preformance of the TD05/06 and the TD06 to standard STI and PPP. It was like night and day, with a bit of lag thrown in for good measures.

I will not guess power figures but if the 05/06 wasnt over 400bhp, the TD06 was.

The torque however, in my opinion was not over 360lbft, however we are talking about horses here and what you spend in torque you can cash in on bhp and ingnition advance.

Thats my tuppence haepennys worth.

Callum W

its impossible to say if the biger turbo gave any increase in performance at all?

a standard engine will only flow so much air...doesnt matter what size of turbo is trying to ram the air thru it...

fundementals my good man  LOL

anyway

awright wilky!

 

hows the car?

 

heard you did the gearbox at KH..

still not had a shot in it yet.........

[andrew_forrest]

"a standard engine will only flow so much air...doesnt matter what size of turbo is trying to ram the air thru it...

fundementals my good man  LOL"

 

Wrong I'm afraid. A std engine can make extremely high bhp with a big turbo, longevity is the issue.

A std internals 2.0 Sti 7/8/9 on a big turbo/intercooler/injectors will flow enough air to run to 500bhp (for a very short time)

Gumballs car was making more power on the bigger turbo without doubt.

As an example at 1.5 bar a td04 turbo will run 290bhp, TD05 will run 340 and a TD06 will run approx 400, A twisted GT30 would be low/mid 400's ..... on the same engine.

Andy

[rapidcossie]

"a standard engine will only flow so much air...doesnt matter what size of turbo is trying to ram the air thru it...

fundementals my good man  LOL"

 

Wrong I'm afraid. A std engine can make extremely high bhp with a big turbo, longevity is the issue.

A std internals 2.0 Sti 7/8/9 on a big turbo/intercooler/injectors will flow enough air to run to 500bhp (for a very short time)

Gumballs car was making more power on the bigger turbo without doubt.

As an example at 1.5 bar a td04 turbo will run 290bhp, TD05 will run 340 and a TD06 will run approx 400, A twisted GT30 would be low/mid 400's ..... on the same engine.

Andy

 

no doubt you have done the testing andy so dont doubt your figs.

not picking on Gumballs car but it seems to be the one everyone is talking about at the moment.

was he not runing standard injectors?

surley these would have been maxxed out way under 400+ bhp?

as the 550cc 's on my friends P1 are running 100 percent duty at probs 370ish

[wilky]

Hello mate, gearbox is fine, I thought T had stripped the step downs but its a clutch issue, I will probably be getting a twin plate but the jury is still out.

I understand what you are saying mate, however here is how I see it.

Imagine a standard flat 4 with a TD05 16g at 1.6 bar, with good mapping you would see about 330/340 bhp 330/340lb ft (On a 16g 1.6 bar is abit ambitious but this is hypothetical) 1.6 bar is baws to the wall as far as a standard bottom end goes, if you want a wee bit of life out of it.

You take that turbo off and fit a TD05/06 20g and again map at 1.6 bar. You will not see much of an increase in torque because you cant really go higher than 1.6 bar, its a standard bottom end, MAP = torque in a laymans world.

However hundreds of people with this upgrade around the UK, with standard bottom ends and at 1.6 bar see thier bhp increase after mapping to anywhere up to 380bhp, depending on how much ignition advance they can run.

Why? Because a bigger compressor wheel and housing will run more efficiently an shift more air through the rev band than a smaller one, making it easier to make power and the charge temp slightly lower. Match this with the correct fuelling, means that you can run more ignition advance from TDS and thus make more power.

With the same engine, drawing the same into each cylinder capacity, regardless.

Callum W

[wilky]

Damn. Beaten to it. I need to learn to type quicker.

[rapidcossie]

glad to hear the gearbox is still in one piece mate!

i understand your previous post and where your coming from but i want questining that.

 

I didnt say that i though Gumballs car had reached the maximum flow point of the engine but i did say that it was wrong to ASSUME that the power will increase everytime a larger turbo charger is fitted.

 

think andy thought i had said this aswell but was only pointing out that sometimes no mater how much air you try and ram thru the engine is can only flow to its limits, which andy has now stated to be mid 400's thus making Gumbals power a realistic possiblity....with the correct fueling etc etc

[andrew_forrest]

 

no doubt you have done the testing andy so dont doubt your figs.

not picking on Gumballs car but it seems to be the one everyone is talking about at the moment.

was he not runing standard injectors?

surley these would have been maxxed out way under 400+ bhp?

as the 550cc 's on my friends P1 are running 100 percent duty at probs 370ish

 

I'm not claiming any figures whatsoever for Chris's car, anyone that has had their car mapped here will vouch for that. I'm just saying it made more power on the td06-49 turbo than the previous unit.

Raising the fuel pressure can allow the injectors to run more power, I've seen as high as 440 bhp from 550's at 4 bar diff

[rapidcossie]

well like they say andy..the proof is in the pudding  and you and your car and the cars you map are the proof.

not arguing or questioning you but how do you know his car was making more power if you did not power test it before and after?

 

 

[wilky]

I know, I have only recently started to really understand it all. People explain things to me and I have to go away and read up on it. I tried mapping the falcon when I had the link ecu early last year, I got a base map from Jolly Green Monster to get the car started as I was all over the place when I tried to do it myself, then off I went popping and banging along the road, my best mate driving the car and me on the laptop trying to remain calm. The det cans I made were shat so I was working off a knocklink, not ideal. Didnt do to bad however...........................................................................mind you Andy does lock the hand controller on my PFC now, and ill be damned if I can unlock it...[]

[rapidcossie]

i have a laptop and the software for my car if you fancy a go on mine  LOL

 

it is impossible to map for MAX power on the road

[wilky]

I was absolutley petrified.

I have seen a car being mapped on a dyno, and Ive seen an engine mapped on an engine dyno, on both ocassions the mapper said that the car would not perform as well once on the road, and that road mapping or indeed track mapping was the best way to finish the job off.

[rapidcossie]

after experiencing mark shead mapping my car on the road and alan at ava mapping my car on the rollers i understand why it is important to map cars on both dyno/rr and on the road.

we recently timed my cams in and were only seeing increases of 5-10 BHP atw at times(managed a total of 40 bhp increse thru the mid range and 10 at the top), this would have been impossible to do on the road as such slight increases would have never been felt by the ass dyno.

 

but on the other hand now that my car has been optimiesd as much as possible we are going back to the road for some flat out runnng testing before going to brunters for a timed run.

 

we wil be checkng AFR and det along with charge temps ect as the RR can only cool to a certain point.

 

the cars you saw would not perfom aswell when fited in the car as they would now have a restricive exhaust fited along with other ancilleres.

 

the charge temps and water temps would also be mre of an issue in car thus possible having to retard igntion a bit when fitted into car.

[wilky]

I like cossies,

I like the fact that pound for pound with the correct mods they are no frills, exactley what it says on the tin, go like feck. I like the history with them as well and the fact that they were developed with group B in mind. I also like the Lancia evos, but my favorite of all time has to be the audi quattro S1 and S2 Gp B cars. Brute force and ignorance, no sequential gearboxes, no trick diffs, just fully plated. Power on, power off 550bhp. That was 1984/5/6 lol.

[rapidcossie]

I like cossies,

I like the fact that pound for pound with the correct mods they are no frills, exactley what it says on the tin, go like feck. I like the history with them as well and the fact that they were developed with group B in mind. I also like the Lancia evos, but my favorite of all time has to be the audi quattro S1 and S2 Gp B cars. Brute force and ignorance, no sequential gearboxes, no trick diffs, just fully plated. Power on, power off 550bhp. That was 1984/5/6 lol.

 

the original cossie was designd with circuit racing in mind (BTCC of the time to compete against the dominant rover SD1'a of the time).

the engine evolved over time and eventually was used in the works escort wrc cars.(with breif use in saf rally cars too)

the rs200 was the car for group B but the engine was quite different. was only a 1700 and was a BDT not a variation of the YB.

 

the BDT came first and was a evoluotion of the old BDA's(now thats a engine worth talking about!)

[wilky]

Superb,

The RS200 was some machine. Yes the BDAs they could rev to 10 000 rpm couldnt they?

[andrew_forrest]

I used to have an RS1600 BDA with steel internals, cams etc running on 48's much more fun than a scoob, sounded brilliant too !

Regards tuning for power, I can tell from the air and fuel flow in conjunction with the ignition timing if things are improving or not.

Measuring the acceleration between two fixed rpm points also provides useful feedback.

The resulting power 'number' is just a consequence of getting the best from the parts fitted to the car, thats all I aim to do rather than target a particular power figure.

[craigdmcd]

Superb,

The RS200 was some machine. Yes the BDAs they could rev to 10 000 rpm couldnt they?

 

Yes, N/A Cosworth BD series of engines were known for there ability to rev to more than 10,000rpm (there were many incarnations and final letters including A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,P,U and the infamous BDT in the RS200). The best 2.0 litre N/A BDH's were known to give around 280bhp in full race spec.

The original Cossie's were actually designed for international Group A racing and rally where a minimum of 5000 units were required to be built, with a minimum of 10% of that figure to be used for further evolutions - hence 5000 RS Cosworths and then the RS500 model.

Sorry, I used to run the RSOC, so I'm a bit of an anorak about these things.

And sorry again, this time for high-jacking the thread. Have we actually decided a winner for the fastest Newage yet? How about a combined challenge to include the 1/4 mile, a KH lap, a V-Max speed and a timed point to point run (b-road style)?

[RA Dunk]

And sorry again, this time for high-jacking the thread. Have we actually decided a winner for the fastest Newage yet? How about a combined challenge to include the 1/4 mile, a KH lap, a V-Max speed and a timed point to point run (b-road style)?

now that would be intresting []

[WHITEUK]

Would that be with the same driver?

A car isnt made fast by the driver, there have been guys on this forum who think their cars are quick because they have beaten cars around KH etc. when their power figures (dyno'd or whilst mapping) are well below the cars they have beaten.

Would Colin Mc'rae not beat us all round KH or Andy Forrest on 1/4 mile if they tried our own cars?

I say this as my cars just had some minor mods[]but ive never even seen crail or knockhill so does that just make it on par with a standard STI[]

[craigdmcd]

I would let the owner's compete in their own cars (so at least their excuse could be that they were pathetic - not their cars[]). And whilst yes, I would not relish the challenge of matching Colin McRae through a forest stage, Gordon Shedden round Knockhill, or up against Andy Forrest up the 1/4 mile in his fabulous machine, I believe that any of these gents are only mere mortals like the rest of us, and taken away from their comfort zones, with inferior equipment (everyone claims to have a better car, so obviously they must have inferior equipment!), anyone could be a winner.

I am not daft enough to enter this (a PPP WRX isn't really quick enough to match some of these cars under 3 of the criteria that I mentioned), but would like to come along and see it happen (possibly a series over a period of months or through the year?).

Any thoughts folks?

[fai17]

Will be a great event but timing KH is not allowed but a timed sprint track in Inglestone will be interesting..

A crail time is up already and i'm ready to do battle against my old time on the 5th Nov.

Is anyone goning to Crail on the 5th Nov?

[craigdmcd]

On the contrary Peter, if an organised event, such as a special sprint (one warm up and 2 flying laps) were to be organised round KH, them I'm sure they would have no problem with it. This would help also by ensuring that no one else was on the track, so avoiding any daft accidents (ie collisions between 2 cars). A short twisty sprint round Muirkirk, or as you say, Ingliston, would also be a possibility for the agility section or using some of the rally stages at Crail (trying to get a road closure is not the easiest of tasks).

The big thing with this is to try and enlist the help of a car club that has done these type of events many times before.

If enough support was gained, different classes could be organised.

[rapidcossie]

There is no way KH would allow timed runs unless all competeing had race licences and the car were scrutteneered properly.

 

thta not to say that we could do some unofficial timing........