st3ph3n Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 In March this year I got a new clutch and flywheel fitted and the gearbox oil was changed. This was at the same time as my other mods and in preperations for the car being mapped by Andy. Since then I've never REALLY been that happy about how the car has been transmission wise. The rest of it is great. The first thing that sort of struck me was that it was a bit notchy going into third. The next thing was twice not long after getting the work done I would reverse out the driveway, then go to change into first and the car would go into neutral then not want to go anywhere else. Clutch out and in seemed to solve it. the third thing has been more constant - there is a bit of a rattle that is manifested through the gear stick itself when the car is in 3rd and 5th (probably in 1st too, but can't really make it out). If I put my hand on the gear stick then the rattle either minimises or disappears completely. The car was taken back to Greers on two occasions, the first after the incidents with not getting out of neutral, the second about the rattle. The car was driven by them the first time and Bill Greer said that other than 2nd being a bit noisy there was no probs. Said it was common for that anyway. Fair enough. Second time it went down they said the rattle sounded like it was coming from behind the dash and that it wasn't from the transmission itself. I've poked about in the centre console to try and cure the rattle but never with any success. NOW! On monday night driving home I went to go from fourth to fifth on the motorway and basically it wasn't for going. I put it down to me being clumsy as it engaged at the second time of asking. However again yesterday and today it feels a bit more notchy than usual going into fifth. The car itself drives perfectly, but I'm beginning to think that the gearbox is gubbed, or that there's something going on with how it's been all put back together and that perhaps when I'm shifting the movements aren't being translated correctly further down the mechanical chain of events and that it's not engaging as cleanly as it should. In all honesty my understanding of how cars work has grown significantly since I joined the club. Engines and suspension are well within my grasp now, but at the moment I still think gearboxes are the work of magic pixies hiding under the floor. So does anyone with a clue have a clue? If the gearbox is gubbed then would I be better looking at getting it rebuilt or just getting one off the breakers and swapping them over? Car is running 290/290 at the moment, and I have no plans for more power for the forseeable future as the brakes barely hack that as it is. So I'm not looking for any sort of straight cut dog tooth arrangement.
drb5 Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 My first thoughts are to check the linkage underneath tbh. The rattle could be coming from there, though i'd have expected that to be fixed by Bill, if that IS the problem. Failing that, just have the gearbox rebuilt. £2-300 is the usual cost and the standard box is well within it's limits at your power level.
AlanG Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 drb5 said: My first thoughts are to check the linkage underneath tbh.The rattle could be coming from there, though i'd have expected that to be fixed by Bill, if that IS the problem. Failing that, just have the gearbox rebuilt. £2-300 is the usual cost and the standard box is well within it's limits at your power level. Mine were what gearbox oil was used at the clutch/flywheel change, as according to first paragraph this is when the problems started?
WUZ Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 Assuming Alan and I are on the same page, I think that he is referring to the fact that whoever changed the clutch MAY have filled the gearbox with the wrong type of Oil. For example, Millers CRX 75W/90 is fine but CRX 75W/90 BM (ie the Black Moly bit) is not good to synchromeshes ie, the problem you are having going into gear can easily be related to that? Russell ps- if Alan was thinking different ly then I AM SORRY!
st3ph3n Posted September 19, 2007 Author Posted September 19, 2007 Ah the three wise men respond. Firstly thank you guys. So to the points raised - what oil, not sure. Whatever Greers put in at the time - just says 4 litres of gear oil on my receipt. The problem with 5th happened in the last couple of days when the weather was particularly cold. Had no problems with it today when the temps have been back up. Point towards oil perhaps? Dave, if I was to check the linkage is it a straightforward process? The cost of a rebuild is certainly not what I was thinking, so bit more relieved about that.
AlanG Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 I'd find it unlikely (though not impossible) that the wrong oil was put into the gearbox, but it seems to point to that. However, as another possibility it might be down to the clutch itself not releasing properly? There is adjustment on these clutches though you might not think so at first by being hydraulic, but i had to adjust mine when i first fitted an AP organic. I say this only because you say the gearbox was fine before and the only thing (s) changed are the oil and the clutch/flywheel assembly. Doesn't sound like a gearbox failing, so i would rule that out for the time being until it's known what oil is in the 'box and if the clutch needs more clearance.
st3ph3n Posted September 19, 2007 Author Posted September 19, 2007 Alan, is the adjustment something that the cackhanded amongst us can have a go at? The box was to the best of my knowledge fine before the work was done.
AlanG Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 st3ph3n said: Alan, is the adjustment something that the cackhanded amongst us can have a go at?The box was to the best of my knowledge fine before the work was done. As long as you have an understanding of what you're trying to achieve, it's easy enough to do. The adjustment is done at the clutch pedal, though i would still recommend somebody look at the clutch "operation" before going ahead and adjusting the pedal just for the sake of it. Certainly from what you're saying it sounds like your not getting enough clearance when you disengage the clutch, though as mentioned earlier it could be the oil. Have you got anyone local to you knowledgable enough to have a look and determine what it might be?
st3ph3n Posted September 19, 2007 Author Posted September 19, 2007 I'm in Bothwell, but Hypertech and Greers are the people that have done the work on the car in the past. Not sure of anywhere else to go that might be closer. If I was going to a garage of some sort I'm wanting to go with as clear a picture of what the possible issues might be so we can try and get to the root of the issue asap and I'm not left driving away no further. If it was the adjustment of the clutch pedal that was wrong then would that explain the rattle and vibration when in 3rd and 5th? Also would it manifest itself with regards to where the biting point of the clutch was, with the pedal further in or further out?
AlanG Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 st3ph3n said: I'm in Bothwell, but Hypertech and Greers are the people that have done the work on the car in the past. Not sure of anywhere else to go that might be closer.If I was going to a garage of some sort I'm wanting to go with as clear a picture of what the possible issues might be so we can try and get to the root of the issue asap and I'm not left driving away no further. If it was the adjustment of the clutch pedal that was wrong then would that explain the rattle and vibration when in 3rd and 5th? Also would it manifest itself with regards to where the biting point of the clutch was, with the pedal further in or further out? You're not that far away from me if you want me to have a look as a second opinion? PM if interested.
wrxmania Posted September 20, 2007 Posted September 20, 2007 My gearbox was rebuilt by Subaru at 3 years due to these same issues. Brian.
st3ph3n Posted September 20, 2007 Author Posted September 20, 2007 WRXMANIA said: My gearbox was rebuilt by Subaru at 3 years due to these same issues.Brian. Interesting Brian. Do you know what the exact issues were? Did it start happening after a specific event, ie. a service where they might have changed the oil. I'm not going to lie and say that the gearbox has been wrapped in Cotton wool for 3 years, because everyone knows I enjoy a bit of a track excursion now and again, and it's been to Crail...... But plenty of other folk are running stupid power on standard boxes without issue! I'm a heel and toe-er as well, which I would have thought put less stress on the box due to rev matching. I'm no Walter Rohrl like, but I do not bad at all. I'm going to go see Alan anyway as he's very kindly offered to have a look.
AlanG Posted September 24, 2007 Posted September 24, 2007 (edited) Bringing this back on top. Had a drive of Stephen's car. We didn't hear any untoward noises from the 'box in 3rd (weren't in 5th much as explained later) and certainly there is no real vibration from the gearlever when in 3rd either. The clutch itself bites very high up with little pedal movement left when fully engaged, but clutch is releasing okay and it isn't slipping. Stephen had problems getting into 5th tonight and when i drove it initially it didn't want to go in either, though running up and down the gearbox it did eventually settle going into 5th though it "clicks" on its' way in. The other strange problem the 'box has is sometimes in neutral. When in neutral, you should be able to move the lever left and right in a straight line. Sometimes it does this, yet sometimes it moves in a straight line between 3rd and 5th but moving the lever towards 1st,2nd, the lever moves not in the direction of the passenger door but towards the seat back of the passenger seat i.e. in an arc towards where 2nd would be. If you wiggle the lever around it eventually decides to act normally. I think it might be worthwhile looking at the linkage for a quick check than take the box out for the moment, but has anyone else had something similar? Edited September 24, 2007 by AlanG
st3ph3n Posted September 24, 2007 Author Posted September 24, 2007 Alan, many thanks for your time this evening. Very informative! Driving home I went via the Shell in thornliebank and then up the 77 and onto the new Bypass. Managed to get fifth no problems on the journey. The 3rd and 5th vibrations/rattles were certainly not present today, but I think we got more of a show from the box with the reluctance to get into 5th. The plan of action as Alan has said is to check the linkage, but whilst we're in about the box to do an oil change anyway. For the sake of £40-50 it's well worth just doing it now and not wonder about it later on. So what Oil is the question - CRX 75W90 as WUZ said?
WUZ Posted September 25, 2007 Posted September 25, 2007 (edited) So long as you don't use 75W/90 BM then it's the oil for you! Might be that the Polyurethane insert in the linkage is missing or damaged. Might explain the "arc" that the gearlever is moving in? Russell Edited September 25, 2007 by WUZ
st3ph3n Posted September 25, 2007 Author Posted September 25, 2007 Any idea what sort of price or part number for that Wuz? Another suggestion raised last night was the 5th gear retaining nut coming loose - anyone else heard of this?
st3ph3n Posted September 25, 2007 Author Posted September 25, 2007 The nut in question apparently. Seems to me after doing some reading up that this could be the issue indeed. Anyone know if it really is fixable with the gearbox in the car?
WUZ Posted September 25, 2007 Posted September 25, 2007 (edited) No the easiet job with it on the car m8 - its better if the box is off and then get it stripped apart - figure on £200-210 for stripdown, fit new retaining nut and rebuild with new gaskets. TBH - I though you have more issues than what you are having if this was your problem but.................you never know. Scoob ownership - you gotta love it! Russell Edited September 25, 2007 by WUZ
chris_c201 Posted September 25, 2007 Posted September 25, 2007 Stephen, The 5th gear retaining nut issue was very common on MY99... my STi5 had this issue and the symptoms were that it would slip out of 5th particularly when the car was warm. It was quite obvious though as if i was in 5th and gently accelerated then lifted off i could clearly see about 2 inches of travel on the gearstick. Also used to have to double clutch regularly for reverse and sometimes after reversing it was really difficult to get back to neutral. It is apparently possible to fix this issue with the box on the car (for a MY99 anyway) as the rear cover on the box comes off and allows access, in the end though i put mine in for a full rebuild as i was concerned that due to the age / mileage there may be some other gremlins in there. Maybe not much help but as i say it was very obvious that 5th gear was moving in my car due to the gearstick... HTH Chris
st3ph3n Posted September 25, 2007 Author Posted September 25, 2007 I must say that I've never had it slip out of 5th on me. But I can't say I find myself driving along in 5th then suddenly cutting the throttle. It's just a cruising gear for me really, so easy on and off usually. If I can get 5th tonight Chris then I'll certainly look and see if there is excessive travel on the gearstick whilst it's engaged and I come off the throttle. As Alan said last night I couldn't get fifth going up to his, and when in 4th I could only really downshift to 2nd as 3rd wasn't for it at all. I could only get 1st by getting 2nd first then going up.
chris_c201 Posted September 25, 2007 Posted September 25, 2007 Similar to you have said i don't have the best understanding of the mechanical goings on inside the gearbox but it doesn't sound the same to me.... I could always select 5th easily but as soon as i engaged the throttle (gently) i could see the movement... then generally within 2/3 times of gently cruising on and off throttle it would just slip out, never crunching or anything but just slipping back to neutral....
drb5 Posted September 25, 2007 Posted September 25, 2007 Your definately not experienceing the usual 5th gear nut coming loose, IMHO Stephen. As said before, i'd be for checking the linkage first before anything else.
st3ph3n Posted September 25, 2007 Author Posted September 25, 2007 Okay - so tested the movement of the stick in fifth and the result is: nada, zilch, zip, heeeeeeehawwwwww. No more movement than normally seen. Alan said linkage straight away last night and described (in technicolor) the workings of it and where he thought it might be broken. Going back to the whole arc thing - basically with the box in neutral and everything ok I get movement all the way to the left and right, but should I go right then go back left it centres itself and basically wont go much further. At that point 2nd is usually reachable with a bit of pressure, 4th and reverse are cool, but 1-3-5 wont go at all. However, once I get 2nd I can then get 1st again!
scoobaroo Posted September 25, 2007 Posted September 25, 2007 Has it been like this since you got the new clutch fitted Stephen ?? If it has, I would be going back to where it was fitted and asking for answers. Marty.
AlanG Posted September 25, 2007 Posted September 25, 2007 Quote Your definately not experienceing the usual 5th gear nut coming loose, IMHO Stephen. What are the symptoms of having that 5th gear nut loose Dave? I've never had that issue but talking to others it seems having that loose might give a knock on effect with the rest of the gears? The scenarioo Stephen is giving with not being able to get into 2nd is true. When you move the lever in neutral towards the 1st,2nd gate, you sometimes hit an obstruction and so lever won't move over to the 1st,2nd gate. You have to then wiggle the lever slighlty in neutral to pass the obstruction and then it goes into either gear okay. 5th gear though is awkward. It always "clicks" going into 5th and needs a little extra effort to do so. A bit difficult to describe but feels like you aren't entering 5th in the centre of the gate, but you have to ahve the lever against the right hand "stop" before you can put it into gear.
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